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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 5 2005, 04:22 AM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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I'm looking for a capture card in the 200ish dollar range to replace the (rather cludgey) setup I have using my DV camera's capture feature (which I assume would not be as good as a standalone card, but tell me if I'm wrong.)
I have a few questions about this:
First, should I buy a DV capture board? I know it wouldn't work with VirtualDub, at least not yet (soon I hope!). But doing a DCT on VHS video and the like sounds like a terrible idea to me, even if it is as mild as the DV DCT.
Also, 720x480 vs. 640x480: does it really matter? My guess for VHS is no: VHS doesn't have enough resolution for much to matter in that department. But what if I wanted to capture somthing higher quality? Then would it matter?
Finnally, the kicker: what do you think is the best card in this (200-250-ish) price range? What would you recommend?
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| fccHandler |
| Posted: Mar 5 2005, 08:38 AM |
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I don't know if you can still get them, but my ATI TV Wonder VE (BT878A chip) is the best capture card I've ever owned. I got it for $30 on sale, yet it puts my $200 ATI AIW Radeon 9600 to shame. (I suppose the Radeon is nice for gaming, but its capture quality stinks.)
As for NTSC VHS, I believe 480 x 480 resolution is about optimal. If you go below that you'll probably lose detail, and if you go above that you're probably wasting space.
Nevertheless, if you intend to make DVDs from your captures I think it's best to simply capture and encode everything at the standard 720 x 480. The next lower supported DVD resolution is 352 x 480, which is a bit too low IMHO.
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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 8 2005, 12:22 AM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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But what about DV capture? Is it really a good idea to do a DCT on VHS-source material? Won't that cause serious noise amplification (lossy codec + noisy video = VERY noisy video)?
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 8 2005, 12:52 AM |
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it will if you're overdoing dct. but mjpeg on 18 does pretty damn well on vhs at 768x576. and you can still go 19 or 20.
you don't need hardware dv card; why should you need it when u can use mjpeg or indeed dv soft codecs via cheap cards. (or huff if you have space; no dct at all on huff....heh)
and it doesn't have to be the card fcc has; most bt cards produce identical quality. (you would have be real 'lucky' to get a bt8x8 which has so poor wiring that it compromises signal before it reached the chip..i think even k-world stuff doesn't do that. i would recommend pixelview; works for me..some say leadtek is also good)
or you can try cards with philips chips (i don't think these are as robust for vhs as bt or newer cards based on cx chipset..i think these may drop few frames more...although, i don't own philips card, so i can't tell for sure)
stuff fcc said about vhs resolution is totally correct.
as for tv-resolution, you ntsc guys should be safe on 640 most of the time, but even 720 is too low for pal on 5mhz (400 lines of h.resolution), but i dunno if anybody would see a difference on a tv-tube anyway.
if you aim for dvd, then why would you cap at 640 and then upsize to 720?
cap straight to 720.
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| fccHandler |
| Posted: Mar 8 2005, 12:59 AM |
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I might add that if you capture in DV or MJPEG format, and convert it to DVD (MPEG-1 or -2), DivX or Xvid (MPEG-4), then you're doing yet another DCT on top of the first one, because all of these codecs are DCT based.
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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 10 2005, 11:22 PM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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How can I find out what chip a card is using? Most companies provide completely useless information on their websites? And what chip should I be looking for? Is a Bt8x8 chip the best out there for VHS capture? What are the distictions between the Bt8x8 chips? I thought the CX25840 chip looked good, but I can't find any cards that use it.
I want to do huff, but the companies are so busy advertising features, (hardware DV engoding!) they make it unclear wheather or not I can do a software encode, or must use DV.
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| reboot |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 01:06 AM |
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Unregistered
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All the cheap cards can use Huffyuv, or any other codec on your system.
Above, you mentioned you have $200 to spend.
I would forget "soft" cards, BT878 or otherwise, and get a Hauppauge PVR-350 for that, or save a bit and get the 250.
It's hardware mpeg-2 encoder saves you all the encoding time, and you only need a decent NLE to edit stuff. There's also a ton of support and 3rd party apps that work with those cards. |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 01:16 AM |
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if card has a hardware dv encode then that's all you get.
if you get a cheap card, you use a software codec of your choice; funny, ain't it? less money gets you better quality in the end.
main chip manufacturers are conexant (ex brooktree) and philips, and recenlty there is one card with nec's adc/processor.
there are conexant and brooktree (bt8x8) chips on (for example) leadtek and pixelview cards and there are philips chips on (for example) asus cards, and there is nec chip on compro card.
offcourse plenty manufacturers do conexant and philips, but so far i think only compro did nec.
compro also puts philips chips (infact there is philips chip on that compro-nec card too; philips chip serves as nec's interface to pci-bus: nec chip is ntsc-only...bloody japs...  )
the newer conexant chips probably are as robust as bt8x8, while providing somewhat better sharpness.
the companies do provide the data on what chip was used; offcourse, makers of dv bridges don't, as it's not really important there (psssst; they usually use same philips chips as found on cheap cards, and just put dv codec behind it, and charge you big $$$: don't tell anyone! )
you said 200$?
you can buy bt8x8 card, cx8823x card, philips saa 713x chip card and compro nec card for that amount of money!
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| reboot |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 01:53 AM |
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Unregistered
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| QUOTE | | if card has a hardware dv encode then that's all you get |
Good point. So for the $200 get a BT878 (Pixelview are nice and cheap, with reasonable software) AND a Hauppauge PVR-250 
Then you can capture, encode, and watch TV all at the same time! |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 04:05 AM |
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reboot, if he knows enough to ask about dct and noise, he won't like the hardware mpeg2 encoders.
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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 11:02 PM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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| QUOTE | | Then you can capture, encode, and watch TV all at the same time! |
Uh, reboot...
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Oh! Sorry, I was just left speechless for a moment, after I read your post. You sound like the brochures from a capture card company: I almost fell asleep. Did I not make it clear? I'm trying to digitize tapes: I don't care about card features, only capture quality. I want quality and you're recommending an MPEG2 capture card!!?? Those things are abominations: MPEG2 on top of TV or tape!? Eaugh...
Sorry, I'm calm again. Just venting my spleen about those companies who sell MPEG2 capture boards to poor, unsuspecting customers. (Yes, I am obssessed with quality.)
Sigh... If only someone would make a hardware lossless card, that would be cool.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 11 2005, 11:54 PM |
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hehe..there are such cards; uncompressed rgb they feed you with;
and that's 'lossless', although it's not a 'compression'.
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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 12 2005, 07:46 PM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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Har...Har... i4004
I meant somthing like Lagarith.
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| TechMage89 |
| Posted: Mar 14 2005, 10:08 PM |
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Contemporary Anachronism
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Joined: 6-August 04
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Companies provide data on what chip was used? I'd like to see where you're getting that data, I've only been able to find it for one of the thirty-some cards of varied brands I've looked at.
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I'm not insane, everyone else is! |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 14 2005, 11:26 PM |
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http://www.prolink.com.tw/english/products...laytv%20pro.htm
http://www.comprousa.com/products/vmtvultra.htm
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-122-180&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-116-510&depa=0
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc....-116-507&depa=0
etc.etc.
some cards linked above have a tuner;offcourse if you don't need tuner on a card, you can easilly find such cards too.
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