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| Elias |
| Posted: Jan 29 2005, 06:38 PM |
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Will this ever happen? I think it's about time that Avery made his software more MPEG-4 friendly  |
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jan 29 2005, 08:47 PM |
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I doubt it. He said sometime he wanted it to stay AVI only. Maybe that´ll change.
IMO, he should go for MKV. No need for the MP4 container.
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Matroska/MKV ? |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jan 29 2005, 08:58 PM |
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| QUOTE | | I think it's about time that Avery made his software more MPEG-4 friendly |
please give one good reason why should he do it.
thank you.
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| Elias |
| Posted: Jan 29 2005, 09:12 PM |
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Because mp4 rules. Plain and simple. mkv is great too. I don't see why not he couldn't add support for both. |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jan 29 2005, 10:50 PM |
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are you in any way affiliated with 'seemoredigital' or 'bond' of doom9 fame?
if not, then please elaborate.
i'm capping tv; what can .mp4 bring to me.
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| Elias |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 08:51 AM |
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| QUOTE (i4004 @ Jan 29 2005, 10:50 PM) |
are you in any way affiliated with 'seemoredigital' or 'bond' of doom9 fame?
if not, then please elaborate.
i'm capping tv; what can .mp4 bring to me. |
No, I'm not. But I've had a lot of discussions with them on the Doom9 forum about mp4. I don't get it why you guys dislike mp4? It's getting rapid hardware support as we speak, it's created by MPEG, and hey, anyone who uses DivX/XviD (and I'm sure there are a lot of you that does) are using part of mp4, that is, its video codec. Now, we all know how amazing these two video codecs are; why not use their native container that's just about equally amazing? |
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| phaeron |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 09:17 AM |
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It's not like I can wake up tomorrow and implement MPEG-4 file format support while I'm having lunch. It takes a lot more work than you might think, starting with the fact that being able to write the MPEG-4 file format would be weird without being able to read it. It would also be weird to support a file format and not have any code intrinsic to the program to process its primary audio and video formats. And relying on third-party code to do this is, to put it mildly, a technical annoyance.
So, while I'm not generally opposed to the idea, this is not a simple task that you propose by any means. "It's cool and everyone's doing it" is not a good justification.
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 09:51 AM |
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| QUOTE | | No, I'm not. But I've had a lot of discussions with them on the Doom9 forum about mp4. I don't get it why you guys dislike mp4? |
Part of it is the MP4-propoganda on Doom9. Every crappy alpha MP4 tool gets announced as if it is the next best thing, while in reality MP4 is one of the more difficult formats to handle. GUIs have only been created recently. So yes, getting a container shoved down my throat, with tools that produce unplayable output and/or have a horrible interface does not make me want to use MP4.
| QUOTE | | t's getting rapid hardware support as we speak |
Not really.
| QUOTE | | it's created by MPEG |
How is that a pro?
| QUOTE | | and hey, anyone who uses DivX/XviD (and I'm sure there are a lot of you that does) are using part of mp4, that is, it's video codec. |
No. MPEG4 ASP is part of MPEG4 Visual (part 2). The MP4 container format is defined in MPEG4 Systems. Those are two different things.
| QUOTE | | Now, we all know how amazing these two video codecs are; why not use their native container that's just about equally amazing? |
No. Natively, the MP4 container can do almost nothing I like. I want Vorbis audio (or Speex), sometimes vobsubs and sometimes chapters. MP4 is not a logical choice then. AVI and Matroska are. Furthermore, people with MPEG4+MP3 can really do without MP4.
Anyway, I don't see why VirtualDub would have to become some obscure muxing tool for MP4. It should focus on what it does best: capping and encoding. No need for MP4 for that. Of course, if phaeron ever chooses to do otherwise, fine with me.
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useful links:
VirtualDub, Input plugins and filters, AviSynth, AVI-Mux GUI, AC3ACM by fcchandler, VirtualDub FAQ |
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| NuPogodi |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 10:25 AM |
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| QUOTE (Elias @ Jan 29 2005, 03:12 PM) | | Because mp4 rules. |
let me leave my own 5 cents... i do believe that support of alternative containers is too (or, better to write TOO) time&effort consumptive idea to be easily implemented. There are too many containers now and there will be even more in the nearest future (say, recently, Gabest implemented its own container, dsm, and included a proper converter into MPC 6.4.8.3-code). so... my point of view consists in there are proper muxers, each can use avi as input... and vice versa, there exist corresponding demuxers for VDub to read and to reencode videostream.
We have already a bit discussed here, on the board, my own expectations about a future VDub development... they are mostly focused on futher optimizing the processing speed, which may be achieved, say, by changing the filtering strategy... i do believe that filtering should be performed in YUV-colorspace. it would certainly require new filters, but why not to implement colorspace conversion filter which, on necessity, could be called (either by users themselves or automatically). Then, until most popular VDub filters will obtain their YUV-twins, VDub' users could have a possibility to use old-fashioned RGB-filters.
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Optimists believe that they live in the best of existing worlds. Pessimists are afraid of that's right... |
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| bond |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 05:43 PM |
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| QUOTE (stephanV @ Mar 9 2005, 10:51 AM) | | Part of it is the MP4-propoganda on Doom9. Every crappy alpha MP4 tool gets announced as if it is the next best thing, while in reality MP4 is one of the more difficult formats to handle. |
how poor people are for being forced to have to come to doom9 and read all these discussions (ah sorry, propaganda) about tools supporting .mp4...
propably the next statement will say that people are forced to USE .mp4 on doom9...
as if its a crime to discuss and announce it when tools add/update their features. i havent met a dev till now, especially from the ones working for free, who arent happy if people are interested in their work...
just my two cents to this never ending "some people dont seem to have other problems" 
and yeah, i am one of these evil doom9 propagandists... |
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Mar 9 2005, 06:43 PM |
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| QUOTE | how poor people are for being forced to have to come to doom9 and read all these discussions (ah sorry, propaganda) about tools supporting .mp4...
propably the next statement will say that people are forced to USE .mp4 on doom9... |
It wouldnt surprise me since Doom9 is working so hard on his tool. After all, you have done a pretty good job working most of the Matroska people out leaving only Mosu.
| QUOTE | | as if its a crime to discuss and announce it when tools add/update their features. i havent met a dev till now, especially from The ones working for free, who arent happy if people are interested in their work... |
Showing interest is something different from asking everyone to spam a dev for features/mp4 support no?
| QUOTE | | and yeah, i am one of these evil doom9 propagandists... |
More like THE.
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useful links:
VirtualDub, Input plugins and filters, AviSynth, AVI-Mux GUI, AC3ACM by fcchandler, VirtualDub FAQ |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Mar 10 2005, 12:04 AM |
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stephan, what are you doing?
he'll kick you out of doom9 forum!
could you stand the pain?
as for encoder, i like doom9's idea (and i'm not kidding! mencoder needs gui), but...how big dload is ms .net framework?
it is 25mb.
(and how weird is it that bond links to ms software? next up he'll start linking wmencoder and god knows what!  )
to dload that i would first have to know i can do 1pass with limited quants on x264 (like mencoder can do) and that i can encode audio (like mencoder can't..at least last version of avs-mencoder i tried couldn't...i asked sherpya did he include audio encoding support but he didn't reply. there is every version of mencoder imaginable, but not the one that can take avs directly and encode audio and video from it.  ).
as for avs->mencoder interface, i think i had slower encoding with avs2yuv than with makeavis of ffvfw. i think.
so ok, now presuming everything went fine and i have mp4 file with x264 video and mp3 (or aac?) audio that i did in 1pass mode; what mp4 splitter (ffdshow can do decoding) do i use?
nero it won't be, and moonlight installer is a horror.
i said, i'm such a container whore; just give me the tools and i'm using it.
if this mencoder gui can do things x264 vfw can't then i'll use it...if it satisfies thte conditions i stated above.
but...does it satisfy?
you tell me.
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Mar 10 2005, 08:25 AM |
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use this
seems a proper MP4 splitter has to come from a Matroska dev...
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useful links:
VirtualDub, Input plugins and filters, AviSynth, AVI-Mux GUI, AC3ACM by fcchandler, VirtualDub FAQ |
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| Elias |
| Posted: Mar 10 2005, 09:25 AM |
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| QUOTE (phaeron @ Mar 9 2005, 09:17 AM) | It's not like I can wake up tomorrow and implement MPEG-4 file format support while I'm having lunch. It takes a lot more work than you might think, starting with the fact that being able to write the MPEG-4 file format would be weird without being able to read it. It would also be weird to support a file format and not have any code intrinsic to the program to process its primary audio and video formats. And relying on third-party code to do this is, to put it mildly, a technical annoyance.
So, while I'm not generally opposed to the idea, this is not a simple task that you propose by any means. "It's cool and everyone's doing it" is not a good justification. |
Hey, I'm not saying that it's going to be included in the next release of VDub. I'm not forcing you either. The topic was more of a wishlist/question. It might not be the easiest task in the digital video/audio world, but I'm pretty sure you can do it, since, well... you're the man
Have you even given the idea of implementing *.mp4 support any work/testing on VDub? Or even just as little as a thought? As for the *.mp4 fileformat, you could add a restrictive lock or something that allows only MPEG-4 ISO compliant codecs, like DivX/XviD/3ivX and the same goes for MPEG-4 audio codecs. Well, that's just my idea anyway of how VDub could support *.mp4. It's not like I'm asking you to get rid of *.avi in favour of *.mp4, no! They could co-exist in VDub much the same way like *.mkv/*.ogm/*.avi do in VDubMod, you know? *.avi has its benefits, but it's sooooo backwards in comparison with the new containers, like *.mp4 etc. As for not being able to read the *.mp4 format, VDub can read MPEG-4 video, so all it needs is an *.mp4 parser, right? I don't know as much as some of guys here do, nor do I know anywhere near your knowledge of these stuff, so excuse my lack of knowledge. I'm trying to learn. |
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| Elias |
| Posted: Mar 10 2005, 09:37 AM |
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stephanV: I don't have a beef with you, I'm not trying to argue or dispute with you, but I don't get it why every time I start an *.mp4 topic or post in one, without fail, you come rushing in to the topic and trying to bust my balls. Why? I like *.mp4 probably as much as you like *.mkv or *.ogm, wouldn't you think it'd be great if Avery added full support for those containers in VDub? (Hell, I'm even for that. They're good containers after all, open source and everything, and I like that). I feel the same about *.mp4. By the way, about the Doom9 propaganda, I don't know what you're talking about. Although it MIGHT be true, I don't care either way. I came to Doom9 in order to learn how to create fully compliant MPEG-4 ISO *.mp4 files, and that I learned thanks to bond and the others (much appreciated by the way). Have you tried MP4Box and MP4BoxGUI? It works much better than those "crappy alpha" tools you mentioned. And judging from your posts, it's pretty much obvious that you oppose the *.mp4 file format in every way, or strongly dislike/disdain it. So, I don't really see why I should keep conversating with you about it. No offence. I'm not trying to be rude. That's just how I feel about it. |
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