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| Verg |
| Posted: May 3 2005, 11:37 PM |
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Advanced Member
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Member No.: 10273
Joined: 15-May 04
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Sorry... I may have seemed like a spammer here for a little while...
I'd just like to help contribute back for everything Avery's efforts have given to me...
This is my story... please add yours, if you're so inclined:
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Why?
Why another video editor?
This goes back a few years, to the late 1990s...
Like many of you, I'm a fanatic about certain television shows, particularly The Simpsons. And, like many of you, I'd been videotaping them since the beginning. Of course, VHS tapes aren't the safest format; tapes get eaten by vindictive VCRs, or just worn out. This was long before the days when DVD sets of TV shows were even a dream.
If I was going to keep my collection pristine, I had to figure out a way to archive the shows. I had cool video capture card, which I used to create illegal (heh) copyrighted movie files, screengrabs, and sounds for a Simpsons fansite I ran at ICBIASS . COM (not my domain name anymore, FYI). I knew it would capture at least 10 minutes of good, quality video at a time, that I could re-size to the right aspect ratio.
Figuring I could capture each of the four segments from each episode (from VHS tape), I just needed a way to edit the commercials out, and dump the finished videos back to tape.
The Old Process
This was the typical set of steps to complete one (1) episode worth of edits, and get back a full episode length .avi file when done:
1. Get the raw capture files (four per epsiode...)
2. Trim them down with AVIEdit (trim commercials)
3. Export audio segment from each
4. Copy, and paste each of the video segments to the end of the last one
5. Open a wave editor (Goldwave) and do similar with the audio segments
6. Import full wave back into AviEdit and save newly whole AVI
7. Play back in "Cinematograph" and get the videotape ready!
Problems!!
Of course, this process had its share of problems:
1. Very time consuming
2. Major problem: The video scale of each segment didn't always match, so the audio would drift!
3. Quality was very low, when dumped to tape... unacceptably so
4. Worst problem: certain video frames would crash AVIEdit... freeze it up.
Solving Audio Drift
Ok, so the audio drift had to be solved. Here was how:
1. Figured out how long the audio should be for each trimmed segment; chose the video scale of the longest of the four segments, and calculated how long the audio WOULD be for the others were they the newly chosen video scale.
2. Imported the non-matching audio segments into Goldwave, and timescaled them to the exact length they should be.
3. Appended them to each other, and imported them back as a whole .wav into AVIEdit, as usual.
More Problems!
Oy! This made the process even LONGER... and most of the time, each video clip still had some of those pesky broken frames that would make AVIEdit freeze (and any other editor I tried, for that matter).
The Solution?
At that time (sometime in 2000), I asked a lot of questions; trying to figure out what might be causing the crashes. After some tests, and after a long process, I found out that ATI VCR2's N2 codec would create incomplete frames that froze VFW based editors... but these files wouldn't stop playback in DirectX based players, though.
It was about then that I found Avery Lee's program VirtualDub... and I hoped it had the answers. Nope; it froze on the very same frames as the other editors. I remember asking him to implement some sort of frame unfreezer... (this was long before VirtualDub had people modifying it)... of course, it didn't happen. I tried to figure out (using his source code) where I might implement both a time stretcher for audio, and a frame unfreezer... but to no avail.
It was up to me
I had to create a program that did everything I wanted. So... I devised a way to replace a frozen frame in any VCR2 file with one of the adjacent frames. I took into account the possibility of two frozen frames next to each other, etc...
After a few weeks, I'd programmed a little utility that would scan an AVI, and replace incomplete ATI VCR2 frames. I then implemented a "save"... and woo hoo! Clean .avi files that wouldn't freeze! I dubbed the utility "Doc Avi".
Still...
That utility program added another two steps to the process...
1. Get the raw capture files (four per epsiode...)
2. Scan each with Doc Avi... which sometimes was slower than real-time...
3. Export clips (took time, too)
4. Pare them down with AVIEdit (trim them)
5. Export audio segment from each
6. Copy, and paste each of the video segments to the end of the last one
7. Open a wave editor (Goldwave) and do similar
8. Make calculations; timestretch required wave files in Goldwave... copy & append
9. Import wave back into AviEdit and save newly whole AVI
Sure, this was safer; no more freezes... but it took even more time to complete one episode... three hours or more for a half-hour of TV. Couldn't a program just handle most of these steps?
A Concept Is Born
Right there, the concept for Verge (Or "Segway" as I called it... a "WAY" to connect "Seg"ments... it would still be called "Segway" if it weren't for that damn, stupid "Segway" scooter company >:( )
Basically, I wanted something that could:
Trim the .avi files; scan them for frozen frames; time-scale the audio internally, with all the proper calculations; and then do all the exporting... leaving just three steps for me:
1. Capture video
2. Open the segments; edit; scan for broken frames; join them; save result (all in one place)
3. Output to tape/DVD.
DVD? Yes! DVD! It was indeed a joyous day when I learned (in 2001) that there was a computer which could burn DVDs.. the only one on the market: A G4 Macintosh! Now, there was actually more motivation to continue the project, since the quality of any edited video would be preserved much better.
Currently
Fast-forward to today. "The Simpsons" has started putting out DVD sets. No matter; it will take them forever to get to the current season (17). It's been three+ years of development.. five in all, actually, if we count the days of "Doc Avi" and hand-editing.
My vision for Verge is an easy to use Non-Linear Editor suite which is either free or available for nominal registration fee... an editor than can join any number of video segments regardless of compression or frame rates... and do all the processing under the hood. Verge should be an easy companion for programs like VirtualDub or AVISynth.
There will come a day when Verge will be able to handle very complex jobs and bring down the Avids and Adobe Premiers of this world. Be well.
Chad Lehman, Developer
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( reprinted from http://www.xverg.com/develop-1.html )
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| neuron2 |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 12:18 AM |
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 01:25 AM |
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If you'd prefer, I'll remove it. There's really no gain for me, other than sharing something that's taken a few years to develop. |
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| neuron2 |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 01:33 AM |
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 01:52 AM |
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Advanced Member
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Gotcha 
Didn't mean to come off sounding like a braggart. It's been a long time in the coming, though... (it may still not be ready) but I'm in it for the long haul... hopefully provide another useful tool for others.
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 01:53 AM |
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Advanced Member
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Member No.: 10273
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BTW I've used your smart-smoothing filter many times. It works great... oh, and thanks  |
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| phaeron |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 03:34 AM |
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Virtualdub Developer
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May I ask what license under which you will eventually release your product?
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 03:36 AM |
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Advanced Member
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| QUOTE (phaeron @ May 3 2005, 09:34 PM) | | May I ask what license under which you will eventually release your product? |
Freeware (haven't sat down with these GPL things and read them, yet). Though I'm not comfortable with open-source... yet.
Again... I apologize if this takes focus from the forum, here. |
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| neuron2 |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 12:33 PM |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 05:49 PM |
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LOL!
you're doing it again.
he just said he won't.
| QUOTE | | I'm not comfortable with open-source... yet. |
it's obvious he wants to make some money;
| QUOTE | | My vision for Verge is an easy to use Non-Linear Editor suite which is either free or available for nominal registration fee... |
but i dunno what is this thread doing on this forum subsection, and also, i dunno if vdub forum is best place to seek help for developing non-freeware.
i think that's what neuron2 and avery are aiming at.
and i think that's general sentiment around here; you'll get more help if you're making open-source freeware.
also, i think that vdub's license requires you to use same license as vdub used if you used any of vdub's code.
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my signature:
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| stephanV |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 06:08 PM |
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Spam killer ;)
Group: Moderators
Posts: 4348
Member No.: 8917
Joined: 18-February 04
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| QUOTE | | but i dunno what is this thread doing on this forum subsection |
good point... moved to OT again...
| QUOTE | | and also, i dunno if vdub forum is best place to seek help for developing non-freeware. |
It certainly shouldnt be used for free advertising of tools that have to be payed for (and i will moderate heavily  )
| QUOTE | | i think that vdub's license requires you to use same license as vdub used if you used any of vdub's code |
yes indeed (which also means releasing the source)
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useful links:
VirtualDub, Input plugins and filters, AviSynth, AVI-Mux GUI, AC3ACM by fcchandler, VirtualDub FAQ |
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 10:37 PM |
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Not to worry; I didn't use any of Avery's code or anyone elses.
I don't want to release the base-code as open source... but I may release the application code as open source. Haven't decided. Not going to make money on Verge, or at least the version you fellas might use.
People could do their own builds, linking .lib or .a files for the base code.
It's just that this base code could be used for anything, not just this project, and it's taken a lot of time to develop. I'd like to keep my options open.
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Okay... now that I'm out of defense mode, how about a question for you:
Why do people gang up on posters and automatically assume the worst? I told Donald it wasn't quite ready, so he insisted it was vaporware. Then I decided to let him try it anyway... even though there were a few adjustments that should have been made first.
The only reason I posted at all here is that I see the same questions from newbies all the time... how do I append? I can't append. I'd like to help. Why must everyone insist that I'm a charlatan?
Chad
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| i4004 |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 11:36 PM |
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| QUOTE | | Why do people gang up on posters and automatically assume the worst? |
what people? (u used plural)
it was don. (one person)
and he gets to be moody here and there. i wouldn't make big deal of that. (i don't see a reason for his attacks; i mean it's not like you already tricked us or something... did i say "already" there...i'm nasty.  )
| QUOTE | | Not going to make money on Verge, or at least the version you fellas might use. |
uhm now i must tell YOU to be carefull.
will you just make beta-testers of us for your finished product that will not be freeware?
i bet even that would be slippery for many folks here.
but to be quite honest, i don't see..hehm..how should i put it....
why don't you cap the whole thing(simpsons) and then edit it via vdub?
i mean your motive to make this was 4gb hdd, right?
or let me ask;
what will this do for me?
i don't cap 10 segments only to append them afterwhile. i cap a bunch and edit via vdub.
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my signature:
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| Verg |
| Posted: May 4 2005, 11:48 PM |
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Posts: 107
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| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | Why do people gang up on posters and automatically assume the worst? |
what people? (u used plural)
it was don. (one person)
and he gets to be moody here and there. i wouldn't make big deal of that. (i don't see a reason for his attacks; i mean it's not like you already tricked us or something... did i say "already" there...i'm nasty. ) |
StephanV seems to be ganging up on me. I really mean no harm 
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE | | Not going to make money on Verge, or at least the version you fellas might use. |
uhm now i must tell YOU to be carefull.
will you just make beta-testers of us for your finished product that will not be freeware?
i bet even that would be slippery for many folks here. |
No, you'd get a full version... but I'm not sure what enhancements might be done at a later time... it's just about keeping options open. I like the idea of freeware and open-source, but I'm not comfortable with folks mucking around with my C++ classes... just yet
| QUOTE | but to be quite honest, i don't see..hehm..how should i put it....
why don't you cap the whole thing(simpsons) and then edit it via vdub?
i mean your motive to make this was 4gb hdd, right?
or let me ask;
what will this do for me?
i don't cap 10 segments only to append them afterwhile. i cap a bunch and edit via vdub. |
I could only capture 10 minutes of good quality video at the time. It was a limit set by the capturing software. VirtualDub (at the time) couldn't bypass the hardware codec's requirement of only a certain size.
So Verge evolved from there... and there are plenty of reasons to want to join several segments, and edit them in one place. Besides.. the audio scaling is done as the segments are being joined, too.
I understand if people are comfortable with editing and joining in VirtualDub... all I'm offering is an additional tool... (which as I explained to Donald, isn't quite ready yet... but nearly)... my mistake was offering to help before a beta was ready.
Chad |
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| phaeron |
| Posted: May 5 2005, 04:31 AM |
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Virtualdub Developer
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Okay guys, time to relax a bit.
Verg, I don't have problems with you announcing your video app, but I do have a few requests. Please don't attempt to masquerade your announcements as you did in this thread, and tone down the announcements until you have released a public download or are specially asking for beta testing. I have no doubt your app is cool, but it's best to release it and let others declare that rather than touting it yourself.
It doesn't matter to me if your eventual license is open-source or not. However, if you do decide to go shareware or commercial, I will ask that you not advertise it on this forum. The reason is not that I have anything against such licensing schemes, but that I long ago became sick and tired of repeated ads for such software on Usenet for every single question posted by newbies.
Let me know when you have your first public release; I'll do my best to find a bug.
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