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| FredThompson |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 06:32 AM |
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Interesting. (thanks for telling me about this thread, Ivo.)
Seems there a little confusion about what freedom of speech (expression) means. Ivo's correct, it means the complete freedom to express whatever you wish.
However, it does NOT mean freedom from the responsibility of your expression. The classic example used to explain this in the U.S. is yelling, "Fire!" in a crowded movie house. The legal charge would probably be inciting a riot and possibly also reckless endangerment.
A very insidious change in America happened when Clinton signed the hate crime legislation into law. It's used as a political weapon against unpopular speech. The crux of this law is that a crime is to be treated as a greater offense if the person committing the crime hates the victim.
The difference between those 2 passages is the former deals with occurrences which result from the expression, the later makes the nature of the thought inside a person's head into an amplifier for the crime. How does one truly measure this and what happens when thought is a crime...
Still, there is no crime in the expression itself.
What doom9 did was censor me for disagreeing with him and, he claimed in an email to me, insulting his parents. I did no such thing. His position truly was as childish as Ivo illustrated; "My parents did this and any disagreement is an insult worthy of tyrannical muzzling." Then, he blocked me after I made the post saying I wouldn't reply to his posts which have nothing to do with the topic.
Ivo, the Nazi example occurred to me a few times. You know, the Nazi who claims his beating a Jew is justified because of the bruises created on his knuckles as he beats the Jew...
And...just to stir the pot a little...the Bath Party is national socialist...Nazi...one of Hussein's idols...17+ UN resolutions with deadlines...Iraq did try to buy nuclear precursors...etc., etc., etc.
Wow, look, a contradictory statement as a discussion! (I know, Iraq isn't a good example because historical truth in that type of thing takes time. What is "knowledge" in the public realm about these types of things usually isn't the complete truth. Think of all the information which became available when the Stasi and KGB records started to become available...)
stephenV, nice effort but freedom of speech includes proactive speech, not just reactive, wouldn't you agree?
Preference to not be offended does not invalidate freedom of speech. Being offended is not proof of offense. If anything, it shows freedom of speech exists.
The law of the land trumps any restrictions of use which the content creator wishes to have. The loved/hated DMCA allows for a backup but prohibits bypassing copy protection. Both conditions cannot exist as they are mutually exclusive for encrypted DVDs. Either you are legally allowed to make a backup copy or you are not, regardless of the content creator's wish to prevent it. This is an important principle of civilized society. It also means 2 willing parties cannot create a legally binding contract to do something illegal. |
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 09:29 AM |
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| QUOTE (FredThompson @ Jul 3 2004, 08:32 AM) | stephenV, nice effort but freedom of speech includes proactive speech, not just reactive, wouldn't you agree?
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Yes of course. 
Maybe i was not entirely clear on what i meant (not unusual for me  ). Some of the people here agreed with some sort of small censorship to prevent people saying horrible things (e.g. racism). The point is, with true freedom of speech we don't need to censor that as we can disagree with those people who say those horrible things.
A discussion about any topic can have several outcomes:
- we prove them wrong (argument settled)
- they prove us wrong (argument settled, how unimaginable it may be)
- we meet somewhere in the middle (argument settled)
- we don't come to an agreement
In all 4 cases censorship is not required:
- in the first 3 cases the issue is resolved (we have more or less "censored" ourselves)
- in the 4th case it would be actually very bad to censor either side as we don't understand them and thus have no idea what we are actually censoring. Thinking you know whats "best" often results in oppression.
So yes, the right of proactive speech is important but the right to react to that speech is even more important. Without it, we end up in a cacophony of opinions, which are never discussed for their validity. Or even worse, the ones that are in power will censor everyone who's disagreeing with them.
| QUOTE | in netherlands,they also grow nice marijuana,it seems!
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Actually its becoming TOO good. The amount of "active" ingredients in our national plant ( ) is becoming so high that it is on the verge of becoming a "hard-drug". And even in my country those still aren't allowed. We do have small projects though where heroine addicts get their daily portion for free to keep them of the streets...
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 11:18 AM |
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i4004: You seem to be the ideal human. (That was NOT irony.)
I agree with most of what you said, but, as I see it, we donīt live in a time(there hasnīt been one either) where that would be feasible.
It may not look so, but Iīm not a friend of rules and censorship. Quite the contrary, Anarchy, the original meaning(i.e. not chaos), would be what Iīd see as the perfect way of living.
However, thereīs nothing that could bring me to believe it might be possible.
[quote][QUOTE]Were they listening, but not understanding, theyīd ask for clarification. Or at least think about it.[/QUOTE]
they would?
reasonable people would....[/quote]
Right. But how many are reasonable today? And what do you do with the others? Simply ignore them?
Thatīs the problem - those who arenīt reasonable wonīt listen to arguments. But theyīll listen to propaganda. Or, be influenced by it.
[quote]does it mean that if my dad told me something i am repeating it till i die?
no it doesn't....
a simple argument can counter that;"why are other races different"?
he can't answer it?
you won....
he can answer it?
you lose...[/quote]
You really think so? Then I donīt understand why so many people act different. Or are they all right?
To me, it seems as if many simply repeat what they were told(after all, you donīt distrust your parents, right?) and never started to question it.
[quote][QUOTE]
Yes, so? Freedom of speech doesnīt grant you the right to insult someone, or imply that theyīre inferior, does it?[/QUOTE]
offcourse it does!
freedom is freedom;you don't measure it!
it is a full,complete,non-restricted freedom....
i can say anything,i can insult anyone,i can do whatever i please...[/quote]
Only if youīre living like a hermit. To live in a society, it is necessary to restrict yourself. Otherwise thereīd be constant trouble.
[quote]people are held responsible for their deeds....
i told you to kill a bourgeois member of society?
you killed him?
YOU killed him!
i didn't....[/quote]
Right. But what is a "deed"? Only the physical act? Shouldnīt the influencing of others be counted as "deed" as well? Should not those who propagate such ideas be held responsible as well?
[quote]you can find hatred,evil,racism,anti-semisitsm etc. in many,MANY books...but they are NOT forbidden books!you DON'T censor!ANYTHING!
you JUST DON'T CENSOR!
these books explicityl(or not) say that one should eradicate other races,but they are not censored!
and you can find them in any bookstore...[/quote]
For example? I have no idea what you could mean. Perhaps the bible, or other religious books.
But I assume it depends on local laws, as well as the kind of content.
[quote]a wise man does this;look at the story from many differnet angles,and decide which one is the correct angle...[/quote]
Yes, and a stupid man simply listens to the one telling him why his life is so miserable and why the (ethical group of your choise) are respnsible for it.
The stupid man is as responsible for anything he does then as is the one who ignited the hate.
[quote](cutted) doom9 erases the complete (in essence anti-war!) thread:THAT is how the wars start,my friend!with intolerance,with the choking of discussion!
a war doesn't start if arab and a jew are talking to each other...[/quote]
Hmm. That didnīt read as if itīd were a topic that should be censored.
Did he give any reasons?
[quote]those discussions may get pretty hot,but so what?
if someone said foreigners did it,then you just tell him he's worse person than bart simpsons... :) [/quote]
As long as there IS a discussion, everythings fine. But a discussion requires that both are interested in solving something, not just war.
You canīt beat prejudice with reason. Unless thereīs been some spark of reason already.
[quote]luckily,in modern world,religion will have less and less significance...a passage of time proves this to be a fact...(just look at dutch folks... :D )[/quote]
Sadly, people will replace religion with something else.
[quote][QUOTE]You want that stuff to remain open on the web, so others will read it, and perhaps even believe it, resulting in more hate?[/QUOTE]
if you have only one opinion that states "kill jews,they are scum",perhaps....[/quote]
But that would mean restricting the freedom of speech of others.
[quote]but then i come to that thread and ask "prove the thing you just said!i say they are human beings!"
and that't freedom of the speech!
you can talk,BUT SO CAN I![/quote]
Thatīs fine, really. But do you honestly believe that you can reason with someone who is not interested in talking? Someone who doesnīt care if heīs right or not, as long as he can CLAIM heīs right?
[quote]i say;learn from this forum,learn from neuron2 forum,learn from ars-technica forum,learn from usenet,etc.[/quote]
Neuron2 closed a few threads because they were about general VirtualDub, not his filters.
I agree with that decision, but it would seem to prove that Neuron2īs forum isnīt as free either.
[quote]i say;reflect a real life;reflect a freedom everyone has!
i said,if me,graft and fred were to sit with this 25 old year kid(there are 25 years old men,but he's a kid),and explain few things to him,he would act differently (if he can listen and understand!).[/quote]
(if he can listen and understand!) <- THATīs the problem. (the "he" is to be seen as a general pronoun, not specifically someone)
[quote]i can't understand doom9;i will never understand hypocrisy......[/(quote]
If itīs of any worth to you, I donīt understand most people. Quite frankly, I think that if I ever start to understand humanity, Iīd have to shoot myself out of respect to my ideals.
[quote]honesty,truth,admission of mistakes is a life i wanna pursue....[/quote]
I wish you good luck for that. I think these are goals that everyone sets - but some find itīs impossible and begin to ignore them. Others want to pursue these ideals but donīt see much chance of it.
(Unless you want to be a martyr no one ever heard of.)
[quote]and that is the truth;if someone can prove me wrong,he's welcomed to do so,as i would hate to live my life in delusion...i would hate to live without hearing everyone's voice...[/quote]
Honestly, I with all people were that way. Life would be so much easier.
No need for ridiculous flowery phrases everyone recognises as such but still uses them. Almost no war, etc..
No matter how nice that would be, I just donīt see it in todays world.
Face it, most people wouldnīt know how to act proper in a bathroom unless you slapped them until they do.
That said, I see why you donīt like Doom9 - and if your information is correct, I donīt think Iīd like him either. However, I never had trouble there(probably because I hardly post anyway ;-)
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 11:22 AM |
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| QUOTE (stephanV @ Jul 3 2004, 10:29 AM) | A discussion about any topic can have several outcomes:
- we prove them wrong (argument settled)
- they prove us wrong (argument settled, how unimaginable it may be)
- we meet somewhere in the middle (argument settled)
- we don't come to an agreement
In all 4 cases censorship is not required:
- in the first 3 cases the issue is resolved (we have more or less "censored" ourselves)
- in the 4th case it would be actually very bad to censor either side as we don't understand them and thus have no idea what we are actually censoring. Thinking you know whats "best" often results in oppression. |
Number 4 sounds nice, but what does it mean in truth?
It could mean two things:
1) you talked but didnīt agree
2) you didnīt talk but both, or one, reverted to insults and hate.
In the first case, censoring is bad, true. But in the second case itīs necessary. As I said, someone not willing to talk will neither listen to arguments, nor be reasonable. But he will influence others.
What is racism? Does it mean people talk about it, discussing the varous aspects different groups?
Or does it mean some jerks meet to talk about how great they are and how bad the others are, completely ignoring anything that might scratch their precious illusion?
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 02:58 PM |
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Spam killer ;)
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| QUOTE (Cyberman @ Jul 3 2004, 01:22 PM) | But in the second case itīs necessary. As I said, someone not willing to talk will neither listen to arguments, nor be reasonable. But he will influence others.
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But why is that wrong? You yourself can influence others just as much, but because you influence them with your opinion it makes it alright? If people agree with that person they should have the right to do so, just as much as they have the right to agree you. One opinion should not be censored because of the opposite one. To him you are probably just as unreasonable.
In the end we'll all be the victim of some sort of dictature. I prefer one where anyone can say anything he likes, even if i don't agree with everything that is said.
Following my own logic, you may whole-heartedly disagree with me of course.
| QUOTE | What is racism? Does it mean people talk about it, discussing the various aspects different groups?
Or does it mean some jerks meet to talk about how great they are and how bad the others are, completely ignoring anything that might scratch their precious illusion? |
Actually, it is both... there once was a "science" called eugenetics (it still excists for breeding animals and growing plants). And it was far from limited to nazi Germany.
BTW - How did you break the quoting system???  
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| FredThompson |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 04:43 PM |
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Unregistered
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| QUOTE | Number 4 sounds nice, but what does it mean in truth?
It could mean two things:
1) you talked but didnīt agree
2) you didnīt talk but both, or one, reverted to insults and hate. |
Opinions and attitudes can also change over time. My father was dumb as a rock starting from when I was about 15 to, maybe, 26. Then he got wiser quite quickly. ;P
I like your first option, we can agree to disagree.
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What do you mean by "anarchy", total lack of societal structure? If so, forget language, electricity, water and sewer services...anything on which standards are based. There has to be some structure
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stephenV, yes, I agree, there must be some standard of basic conduct. Capricious whim by tyranical types or general abusiveness means some are more equal than others (in the Orwellian sense.) Maybe the key to defining the minimal acceptable behavior within a healthy group is a mutual recognition of personal value? Hard to define, isn't it? It's like the quote, "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it." |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 06:03 PM |
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the quote instruction should be upper case....
| QUOTE | Quite the contrary, Anarchy, the original meaning(i.e. not chaos), would be what Iīd see as the perfect way of living.
However, thereīs nothing that could bring me to believe it might be possible. |
you are confusing freedom of the speech to acts of violence/anarchy(anarchy means chaos....'arche' means 'power'(to rule)) etc.
as i said,police is here to prevent anarchy,while they must not interfere with freedm of the speech...
so don't be afraid anarchy may prevail if freedom of the speech is in state....because freedom of the speech is with us for long time now...
go out on street,you will hear any sort of ideas...
| QUOTE | | But theyīll listen to propaganda. Or, be influenced by it. |
yeap!look at the support for bush;still in high 40-ish %...
he invaded a country for no good reason....
| QUOTE | | To me, it seems as if many simply repeat what they were told(after all, you donīt distrust your parents, right?) and never started to question it. |
there are stubborn people...sure...
| QUOTE | | Only if youīre living like a hermit. To live in a society, it is necessary to restrict yourself. Otherwise thereīd be constant trouble. |
i didn't said "any thought should be conveyed into words"....
nope...
| QUOTE | | Should not those who propagate such ideas be held responsible as well? |
but i dunno why that parallel?i mean nobody here is saying "kill cyberman" or so.....
or do you know a case where such killings took place ?(other than the war,offcourse;in war a general that ordered killing is responsible;not the soldiers!)
like,someone told someone kill him,and that person did it...?
the criminal groups are also excluded!because those are scum of the earth,and they act almost like animals;you don't know what to expect from them;THAT's why we need police!
you went rather far in an attempt to justify censorship,i imagine...too far,i would say....
for most people,if you told them "kill this person",they'll say "f-u-c-k off"
| QUOTE | For example? I have no idea what you could mean. Perhaps the bible, or other religious books.
But I assume it depends on local laws, as well as the kind of content. |
i guess you don't attend libraries that much?
the written or spoken word should not be censored,and it is not censored....
for all the reasons stephan gave....(avery hinted something too,but was not so clear on it...)
| QUOTE | | The stupid man is as responsible for anything he does then as is the one who ignited the hate. |
if a stupid man commited a crime,then he's responsible....
i can't really discuss about the responsibility of hate igniter,as i'm not familiar with law practice that much(although fred mentioned it now in context of clinton etc.)
so i don't know the law's standpoint in my country....
but i know talking about this(ignite to kill) is not in direct connection with what we're discussing here;
fred was not thrown out because he was saying such things...and even if he did say those things,he shouldn't be thrown out;again for all the things stephan said!
(because another person will come and ask;"say what?")
freedom of the speech knows no boundaries!
when you tell somebody 'kill him' ,that somebody will almost instinctivly ask "why?",and refuse....
the politics,ideologies,regims and other should be left out of this:listen to jamiroquai's 'too young to die'...
if you're interested in that,watch movies by michael moore....he has some arguments.....if he was censored (as you suggest might be a acceptable idea) you would never see those....
| QUOTE | Hmm. That didnīt read as if itīd were a topic that should be censored.
Did he give any reasons? |
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=49457
so in same post,words like
" I do believe in freedom of speech very much,"
and
"#15 forbids political discussion with a few exceptions. "
a hypocrite
| QUOTE | | You canīt beat prejudice with reason. |
and with what can you beat it?
with guns?
| QUOTE | | Sadly, people will replace religion with something else. |
hedonism perhaps
| QUOTE |
Thatīs fine, really. But do you honestly believe that you can reason with someone who is not interested in talking? |
offcourse i can't....
i can't talk to doom9.........
| QUOTE | | Neuron2 closed a few threads because they were about general VirtualDub, not his filters. |
one needs to know a proper place for a proper discussion.....again,I wouldn't close those(i would just link to this forum),but there....
picking a right forum is the least person can do....
it is a forum for HIS filters,although many times he doesn't mind announcements about other folks filters etc.
i don't justify closing any thread(perhaps only move it to 'general' section),so i don't justify his actions either.....
but defferentiate this to kicking you out because you said something....
or,say that i come here and said i wanna discuss the working principle of a transistor....baaah....
you should also be aware of the fact that doom9 mods are giving him a hard time!
THEY are giving a hard time to a video-guru...i think 90% of them are younger than him;and i thought i was a patient man....
| QUOTE | | I agree with that decision, but it would seem to prove that Neuron2īs forum isnīt as free either. |
i said;doom9 can only learn from neuron2(and other mentioned forums)
graft will hear the arguments and correct himself if he was wrong...
| QUOTE | | (if he can listen and understand!) <- THATīs the problem. (the "he" is to be seen as a general pronoun, not specifically someone) |
that's correct;for all that i know,perhaps his dad would throw out them americans...he may decide to leave a croat,but americans to influence lil doom9....
a tv to influence doom9?hell no!
| QUOTE | | If itīs of any worth to you, I donīt understand most people. Quite frankly, I think that if I ever start to understand humanity, Iīd have to shoot myself out of respect to my ideals. |
coming from a man who says *some* censorship might be ok,it is a bit surprising;
your ideal should be humanism;one of the premises of humanism is "free speech for everyone"
| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | honesty,truth,admission of mistakes is a life i wanna pursue.... |
I wish you good luck for that. I think these are goals that everyone sets - but some find itīs impossible and begin to ignore them. Others want to pursue these ideals but donīt see much chance of it.
(Unless you want to be a martyr no one ever heard of.) |
i'd like to know which way you picked;this way,or a way of "well,if it'll make a person happy,sure i'll lie"...
| QUOTE | | No matter how nice that would be, I just donīt see it in todays world. |
todays world doesn't matter;we must strive for more!
i didn't said "we should",but "we must"....
imagine how 'today' looked in mid-ages?
no fun,huh?
| QUOTE | | Face it, most people wouldnīt know how to act proper in a bathroom unless you slapped them until they do. |
i disagree:most people i meet are not dumb at all....
perhaps it was just a lucky coincidence,perhaps it's just my country,but i disagree.....
i know a man who speaks simillar to this(a real bad opinion about everyone) but he's a story on it's own....(ie it's more of him being a story than others being a dumb-asses!)
offcourse this doesn't mean you're like him,it just reminded me of him...
i find it that i can talk to almost anyone('meeting people is easy');and usually it only gets lil to start people talking;after that,i feel like a preacher doing a confession...
but this doesn't suggest i get to be a close friend with everyone...OR that some folks won't hate me when i spit some of that good ol' truth right into their face...
(and i'm not surprised when they say truth to me;in fact i love that 'american' way...)
somehow i see more good hapenning in this world...sure,there's nastyness too...there must be...but for example,if my car broke anywhere in my country,i expect people to help,same as i would help them...light years away from any political discussions etc.
that is what makes a human human...
| QUOTE | | That said, I see why you donīt like Doom9 - and if your information is correct |
it is correct untill you prove it wrong!
if someone's a nice lil puppy,he'll do well on doom9....
but i had some misconceptions to break!
lookin' at todays version of capping guide,i say i did fairly well!
remembering all the erroneus stuff that was going on at doom9 forum(especially capping offcourse..although there are still people who say "vhs is 320x240"...  ) ....huh..it's not that hard to see why 'establishment' didn't loved me...
and i rarely hold any punches....
prior to my arrival there was 'mijo'(ookami);he was buying all the expensive things his fellow doom9 members suggested:i believe that today,i'm making better caps with bt8x8 than he with DV capping system...
sure mijo,i'm a looney;but a one that beats YOUR 400$ DV system with a 40$ card....(did he bought a 400$ TBC too? huh..)
(just to mention some of the crap by doom9 mods)
you wouldn't believe amount of mistakes in 1st version of capping guide;all those mistakes could easily be avoided if someone actually tested all the stuff that was said!
i'd like to think i corrected a misconception here and there,as you see...[pride  ]
it is a satisfaction to say i did it by more of a testing things than guessing things!
i have a PC,why should i guess?
i'd like to thank everyone participating in this thread(so far);you know you wouldn't be allowed to do it on doom9 forum:so just keep the comments coming....
<wink>
| QUOTE | | Opinions and attitudes can also change over time. My father was dumb as a rock starting from when I was about 15 to, maybe, 26. Then he got wiser quite quickly. ;P |
hear,hear!
so we may expect doom9 to get better in a year or two?
"doom9: the cleaner version"
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 08:05 PM |
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| QUOTE (FredThompson @ Jul 3 2004, 05:43 PM) | | What do you mean by "anarchy", total lack of societal structure? If so, forget language, electricity, water and sewer services...anything on which standards are based. There has to be some structure |
No, of course not. As I said, I donīt mean the "new" definition of it.
Anarchy once meant(the german equivalent of the word, as read in a dictionary), absence of "extern" ruling system, because anyone would act according to own rules high enough that itīs not necessary to set laws.
Like, if no one would even think about stealing - why should there be a law against it?
(from here on, i4004)
| QUOTE | | you are confusing freedom of the speech to acts of violence/anarchy(anarchy means chaos....'arche' means 'power'(to rule)) etc. |
No, as I said, the definition changed.
Letīs use another example - if all people behaved like i4004, there would be no need for censorship or rules.
| QUOTE | i didn't said "any thought should be conveyed into words"....
nope... |
Ah - then there has to be some censorship? Only that it would be, in the ideal case, by oneself, instead of some organisation(like government, mods, etc).
| QUOTE | | but i dunno why that parallel?i mean nobody here is saying "kill cyberman" or so..... |
No, at least, not that I know.
But as I said, why should ideas like racism be allowed to continue? Theyīre surely harmful, wouldnīt you agree?
As those probably wonīt listen to arguments, why risk spreading it?
Some simple-minded might easily be guided into racism, simply because they donīt think enough.
Why should that be tolerated?
| QUOTE | or do you know a case where such killings took place ?(other than the war,offcourse;in war a general that ordered killing is responsible;not the soldiers!)
like,someone told someone kill him,and that person did it...? |
Not in such a direct sense. Think more subtle - like building up "arguments" why some group is responsible for anything. Building up hate - sooner or later somthing will happen.
| QUOTE | you went rather far in an attempt to justify censorship,i imagine...too far,i would say....
for most people,if you told them "kill this person",they'll say "f-u-c-k off" |
As I said, think more subtle. Of course most will react that way. But build up a distrust against some group, and you might even get the same result.
Like saying that moslems are all potential terrorists, so itīs OK to harass them with constant observation and restrictions and the like.
How long will it take until somone will find justified arguments to kill them?
| QUOTE | | i guess you don't attend libraries that much? |
Itīs been a while, yes. I simply donīt have that much time anymore, mostly I buy books online.
Even so, I wouldnīt search for that anyway - could you name a few books?
| QUOTE | | the written or spoken word should not be censored,and it is not censored.... |
Where? Iīm sure that on TV there are words that arenīt used. Movies are cut to remove scenes too violent to protect young viewers.
Some books arenīt allowed - that may be local law, as I said, but Iīm quite sure that itīd be wearisome to obtain a copy of "Mein Kampf" in Austria (Or Germany).
| QUOTE | if a stupid man commited a crime,then he's responsible....
i can't really discuss about the responsibility of hate igniter,as i'm not familiar with law practice that much |
Forget the law for a moment. Would you say that only the person doing the actual deed is responsible, or those who started it as well?
| QUOTE | | when you tell somebody 'kill him' ,that somebody will almost instinctivly ask "why?",and refuse.... |
Might be.
But what if you go to someone whoīs got no job, no money and no future and tell him that itīs all the fault of the jews, the moslems or whoever.
Then sometime he kills one of them because he had a slight quarrel. Without your intenvention, he might not have done it.
Are you responsible then as well, or not?
You wouldnīt be, could we expect everyone to be reasonable, but I doubt that.
| QUOTE | | if he was censored (as you suggest might be a acceptable idea) you would never see those.... |
I only say that there are situations in which censorship is required, not that itīs good.
| QUOTE | so in same post,words like
" I do believe in freedom of speech very much,"
and
"#15 forbids political discussion with a few exceptions. "
a hypocrite |
Why? Apart from the "a few exceptions", I think itīs good idea to forbid political discussions, as itīs quite sure that it wonīt stay as a discussion for long and end up in a flame-war.
| QUOTE | and with what can you beat it?
with guns? |
Unfortunately not. But extinction might help. Prevent spread of it, and make sure it doesnīt start again.
The first needs censorship, the second information and education to think before acting.
| QUOTE | | one needs to know a proper place for a proper discussion |
Of course. But it still is then a restriction of freedom of speech, wouldnīt you say?
| QUOTE | | coming from a man who says *some* censorship might be ok,it is a bit surprising; |
I know. Nevertheless, I mean it. I know myself quite well, and I see where I would act different, were it not for laws or custom. Different in a negative sense. Things I wouldnīt realize, were it not forced upon me. Now I follow these rules because theyīre good, but I wouldnīt have by myself, simply because I wouldnīt have realized it.
I see others who still donīt follow these rules - knowingly or not.
| QUOTE | | your ideal should be humanism;one of the premises of humanism is "free speech for everyone" |
Nice idea. Dangerous, but nice. Would you give free speech to Hitler, or his followers? Chancing that they gather more around them?
| QUOTE | | i'd like to know which way you picked;this way,or a way of "well,if it'll make a person happy,sure i'll lie"... |
I try to be as honest as possible. But I often face situations where I indeed have to, well, pretend something. Be it out of civility or because it wouldnīt do any good otherwise.
| QUOTE | todays world doesn't matter;we must strive for more!
i didn't said "we should",but "we must".... |
Yes, we must. But thereīs no reason to sacrifice yoursel when you gain nothing in return.
| QUOTE | imagine how 'today' looked in mid-ages?
no fun,huh? |
No. Not from todays point of view. Back then it probably didnīt look as bad, as they didnīt have our time to compare.
| QUOTE | | i disagree:most people i meet are not dumb at all.... |
Not even online? In "real" life, I hardly encounter anyone stupid either, but online there are many. Perhaps they act different in real life, but it does give much away if you act like a complete jerk just because youīre anonymous while online. (Note: Iīm not meaning anyone HERE. Just for clarification)
| QUOTE | i know a man who speaks simillar to this(a real bad opinion about everyone) but he's a story on it's own....(ie it's more of him being a story than others being a dumb-asses!)
offcourse this doesn't mean you're like him,it just reminded me of him... |
Hmm. Maybe I am like him. I canīt tell. Thatīs one of the biggest problems in life - you canīt tell if youīre right, and the world is wrong, or if youīre wrong and the world is right.
Both cases have their precedences. And of course, it doesnīt make sense to assume one is wrong, does it?
| QUOTE | it is correct untill you prove it wrong!
|
Well, yes. I filed it as "probably right", as I have no reason to mistrust your judgement. But I have no reason to assume that your judgement is the same as mine....
| QUOTE | | but i had some misconceptions to break! |
Go ahead then, and break them. But be careful not to be broken yourself - because that would be a useless sacrifice.
| QUOTE | | (skipped) (just to mention some of the crap by doom9 mods) |
Hmm. Iīll keep that in mind when reading there.
| QUOTE | | you wouldn't believe amount of mistakes in 1st version of capping guide;all those mistakes could easily be avoided if someone actually tested all the stuff that was said! |
I would believe it alright. Itīs a bit off-topic, but did you ever compare the german translation of Simpsons/Futurama to the original? One would assume itīd been kindergarten kids who did the translation, not people getting money for it.
Or a consultant company actually suggesting to consolidate the computer systems of two companies(different countries even) without mentioned the insurmountable problems(like different laws that cannot be mantained by one single system).
So, having seen these things, Iīll believe that without trouble.
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Matroska/MKV ? |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 4 2004, 05:02 AM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 2432
Member No.: 4935
Joined: 24-June 03
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anarchy has it's roots in greek....(a=not,arche=power)
see,dictionary publishers have freedom of the expression too...
| QUOTE | | Letīs use another example - if all people behaved like i4004, there would be no need for censorship or rules. |
not good example;differentiate "behaviour" to "speech", and "act" to "talk"...
you don't 'act' by sitting in armchair and writing this answer(like i do now),you just 'talk'....
talk alone never killed anyone(i mean i could try to shout so loud,but..naah.. )
| QUOTE | | Ah - then there has to be some censorship? Only that it would be, in the ideal case, by oneself, instead of some organisation(like government, mods, etc). |
i was more thinking how when i see nice girl,i guess it wouldn't be so wise to tell her how i feel at that instance...about her body,i mean...
let us say that there is NO censorship(ie i would do a mere 'stream of consciousnees' talk ,like virginia woolf,or james joyce( ) AT ALL;this doesn't change anything;infact it would make it even more fun;to hear other people's thoughts as they happen....
i mean,you did heard of 'stream of consciousness' novels,right?
i think many of my posts do resemble it,in fact,as i can skip from this thought,to another,to another...etc.
and i can explain why are they linked in my brain...
i really enjoyed joyce and woolf<wink>
so again,you CAN do that too....you can THINK whatever you please,and you can SAY whatever was that you thought of!
and you're not going to jail for doing it...(but that girl might slap your face... but some other girl may actually like it...  )
| QUOTE | | But as I said, why should ideas like racism be allowed to continue? |
some people think/say races shoudln't mix,and they are *entitled* to such opinion...there is a freedom to think/speak what they wish....
however,there's no such thing as a right to kill a person because (s)he's of different color...
personally,i dunno where's a place for a racism in todays world,when everywhere you turn it is very apparent that there are no 2 same persons in the world,there is no 2 same nations,no 2 same cultures,no 2 same races.....(we may have 99% percent of genetic materal the same,but we're all different,VERY different...that's why this life is fun!if we were all alike,it would be very,VERY boring)
so if everything is so individual,how can anyone say 1billion is 'lower race'....
somehow it is like a horoscope,isn't it?
a flawed concept...
all my thoughts are based on a single concept;don't judge a book by its covers
i mean i can fall in love with a girl just by looking at her,but if she doesn't understand half of what i say,i can't love her....and i don't want just a girl's body....
any idea can exist,but flawed concepts tend to evaporate....
| QUOTE | Some simple-minded might easily be guided into racism, simply because they donīt think enough.
Why should that be tolerated? |
it might also be guided into anti-racism....
but,who's doing a 'mind guidance'?
ohhh..wait,i know....pimps do....
(did i mentioned how woman and man differ greatly?they even run on different hormons
)
any word must be tolerated,because a word is a basis to all of the civilisation;if man didn't learn to communicate,he would be on level of animal...
so we must cherish it even if it means a fight of 'good word' against 'bad word' here and there,as censoring would make stuff only more complicated;and because a person needs a total freedom....
funny that;a terrorism is based on a principle of "total freedom"
i can blow up my hydroelectric plant tomorrow if i wanted to....
but the answer is same as if someone asked me to kill someone;
"f-u-c-k off!"
reasonable being is asking "why?"....
reasonable beng is asking many questions overall....
it may also question itself why is he asking questions anyway....
| QUOTE | | Building up hate - sooner or later somthing will happen. |
where do you live?where from are your folks?
you sound frightened from racism...
worry not;it's a thing of the past;didee said we're just on the beginning (human race)
but is the beginning start of the-end?
we're makin' a lot of smoke,that i'm certain of!
| QUOTE | | How long will it take until somone will find justified arguments to kill them? |
it is happening as we speak;in iraq....
and arguments are not justified at all....
i have seen this on telly;
there is a highway in iraq;there is a civilian vehicle that wants to surpass a military truck;us soldier inside that truck is not letting it do that and starts fireing at a civilian vehicle,killing everyone inside....
no comment...(i have seen few simillar situations there too...)
sometime i get a feeling usa needs a war from time to time....so it finds a war from time to time...
| QUOTE | | Even so, I wouldnīt search for that anyway - could you name a few books? |
if i said there is crap,it doesn't mean i read it...
| QUOTE | | Where? Iīm sure that on TV there are words that arenīt used. |
hihi...i just watched a totally censorship-free show on a tv-station a whole croatia can watch....no censorship at all....
also,how do you censor a live-tv?
you can't....they can put 'beep' only afterwards...
| QUOTE | | Movies are cut to remove scenes too violent to protect young viewers. |
should i name some horror flicks i watched prior to going to school?
| QUOTE | | Some books arenīt allowed - that may be local law, as I said, but Iīm quite sure that itīd be wearisome to obtain a copy of "Mein Kampf" in Austria (Or Germany). |
if you can read croatian,i can get a copy for you....
some people are interested in what was the hitler's excuse....so why not read his book....
| QUOTE | | Would you say that only the person doing the actual deed is responsible, or those who started it as well? |
i will if you give me an example from real-life....
like 'he was told to kill him and he killed him'
and all parties were above..say...25 ( )
and not mentally ill....(hitler=ill)
| QUOTE | | But what if you go to someone whoīs got no job, no money and no future and tell him that itīs all the fault of the jews, the moslems or whoever. |
what if...what if we all walked nude?
i know i would go 
| QUOTE | | Then sometime he kills one of them because he had a slight quarrel. |
killing a person because of a slight quarrel is a sign of mental illness...
having a gun in your home is a sign of mental illness...
(ok,that's except for usa...i'm sure they have reasons to have weapons....  )
i would consider myself nuts if i had a gun in my home...
| QUOTE | | I only say that there are situations in which censorship is required, not that itīs good. |
i say there aren't such situations....
nazi's were saying simillar things....only they went very broad with censorship/sanctions....
| QUOTE |
Why? Apart from the "a few exceptions", I think itīs good idea to forbid political discussions, as itīs quite sure that it wonīt stay as a discussion for long and end up in a flame-war. |
we're discussing everything here;would you like me to cut-out some portions of my posts?
what is 'flame-war'?some internet term?
does it mean " a hot discussion"?
ohh man,i have seen a tons of such things,and nobody killed anyone because of it...what's more,usually agreement is reached...
| QUOTE | Unfortunately not. But extinction might help. Prevent spread of it, and make sure it doesnīt start again.
The first needs censorship, the second information and education to think before acting. |
oups!don't say things like that;
you cannot extinct human thoughts...
regardless of a kind of thought...
you decribed brain-washing right there....
you cannot teach someone 'how to think'...
| QUOTE | | Of course. But it still is then a restriction of freedom of speech, wouldnīt you say? |
closing a thread is that by definiton...
| QUOTE | | Now I follow these rules because theyīre good, but I wouldnīt have by myself, simply because I wouldnīt have realized it. |
many people know more than one..especially if they're doing something for ages...
| QUOTE | | I see others who still donīt follow these rules - knowingly or not. |
shit happens...
although sometimes striclty following the rules may not be a good thing either....
reminded me of:there i ride with my friend;my friend never passes the white line when a car infront of him makes a right turn(we drive on right side) even though it's safe to do so(nobody coming from opposite direction)....he follows the rules strictly...to me,it's funny...
sometimes following a rules will kill you on the road...
| QUOTE | | Nice idea. Dangerous, but nice. Would you give free speech to Hitler, or his followers? Chancing that they gather more around them? |
he had it......his followers have it too....but i think german folks learned thier lesson well.....they won't invade anyone anytime soon.....
so hitler cannot happen again....but iraq can....
| QUOTE | | But I often face situations where I indeed have to, well, pretend something. Be it out of civility or because it wouldnīt do any good otherwise. |
could you ,please,describe one such situation?
i would like to see what would i do in such situation(or perhaps even what DID i do..)
| QUOTE | | But thereīs no reason to sacrifice yoursel when you gain nothing in return. |
ohh,yes there is!
i don't need to be payed for helping people;i'll do it because i adore doing it!just ADORE it....
it makes me feel human...
| QUOTE | | Back then it probably didnīt look as bad, as they didnīt have our time to compare. |
it looked bad compared to roman/greek times...
online you meet much more people,and some are bound to be dumb-asses...
| QUOTE | | but online there are many. |
like i said..
10% on 100 means 10
1% on 1000 means 10
| QUOTE | | Perhaps they act different in real life, but it does give much away if you act like a complete jerk just because youīre anonymous while online. |
yes,i don't think doom9 is censoring his friends or parents in a way he's censoring his forum...=hypocrite
| QUOTE | | Hmm. Maybe I am like him. I canīt tell. |
he also likes to tell lies and invent stories.....
he also tries to put a new face to indulge every person(so nobody ever saw 'real him')
etc.
but he also makes me laugh....
| QUOTE | | But I have no reason to assume that your judgement is the same as mine.... |
if all you do is rip dvd's and encode them to xvid,you won't have any problems there....
if you like to toy with stuff,and find out something is not as it should be,anything can happen...
and it is not 'probably right';it's either right or wrong;if it's wrong,you need to warn me and tell me why is it wrong...
| QUOTE | | Go ahead then, and break them. But be careful not to be broken yourself - because that would be a useless sacrifice. |
i broke many,and i'll break some more....if i didn't broke while i was on doom9,i never will....because i have no reason to calculate "will mods like this" and then go look at it tomorrow to see did they,or not...
and be afraid "what if they don't like it?mommy..they'll kick me from doom9....ouch ouch ouch..."
hehehe
| QUOTE |
Hmm. Iīll keep that in mind when reading there. |
keep only one thing in mind;you'll be watching your video,not doom9,so try to satisfy yourself,not some forum....if it doesn't feel right,there are alternatives...
| QUOTE | | I would believe it alright. Itīs a bit off-topic, but did you ever compare the german translation of Simpsons/Futurama to the original? |
so you live in germany ( )
yes i know;your folks dub;this is a disaster!
once i thought about capping those two from pro7(nice video quality) and finding sound track somewhere else...but there is no guarantee that soundtrack would fit,as god knows what was cutted too(in video)...
i've heard that even on this toons dvd's you have no original tone?is this right?
i mean bender is not bender if he doesn't have original actor saying the lines...
dub is a complete destruction of a movie....
total,utter crap....
probably a byproduct of many people not knowing to read in a time when translations started....
| QUOTE | | So, having seen these things, Iīll believe that without trouble. |
still easier is to check my feedback to the forum on that occasion....but it doesn't matter now...
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my signature:
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 4 2004, 08:08 AM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 2035
Member No.: 3477
Joined: 3-April 03
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| QUOTE | anarchy has it's roots in greek....(a=not,arche=power)
see,dictionary publishers have freedom of the expression too... |
Well, yes. But the definition "a=not, arche=power" doesnīt say much in itself. It merely means "absence of power", it doesnīt specify what kind of power.
The point is, it doesnīt necessarily mean chaos - weīve got a word for that already.
What we donīt have a word for is a form of civilisation where people act according to their ideals which are "high" enough to make laws not necessary.
| QUOTE | | you don't 'act' by sitting in armchair and writing this answer(like i do now),you just 'talk'.... |
So writing and talking is no action to you?
| QUOTE | | talk alone never killed anyone(i mean i could try to shout so loud,but..naah.. ) |
Are you sure? Of course, no one ever got killed merely by listening/reading something.
But what about racist material? Racism sure killed people, wouldnīt you agree? What about books that propagate that view?
| QUOTE | | i was more thinking how when i see nice girl,i guess it wouldn't be so wise to tell her how i feel at that instance...about her body,i mean... |
Censorship nonetheless, though itīs from yourself. You restrict yourself.
| QUOTE | let us say that there is NO censorship(ie i would do a mere 'stream of consciousnees' talk ,like virginia woolf,or james joyce( ) AT ALL;this doesn't change anything;infact it would make it even more fun;to hear other people's thoughts as they happen....
i mean,you did heard of 'stream of consciousness' novels,right? |
No, never heard of that. Are you describing telepathy?
If so, I donīt think that it would be any good. Todayīs man surely couldnīt survive if that would happen suddenly, maybe if itīd be part of evolution.
Still, even there I would assume that restrictions are necessary.
| QUOTE | so again,you CAN do that too....you can THINK whatever you please,and you can SAY whatever was that you thought of!
and you're not going to jail for doing it...(but that girl might slap your face... but some other girl may actually like it... ) |
Yes, but just as I can translate the thought into words, I can translate it into a more physical action.
Anyway, the thoughts have to remain free, of course. Thereīs no way to control anyway, but it should be controlled what is being read/heard.
There are restrictions for minors, for example. Like movies that are made for 18+ only.
| QUOTE | personally,i dunno where's a place for a racism in todays world,when everywhere you turn it is very apparent that there are no 2 same persons in the world,there is no 2 same nations,no 2 same cultures,no 2 same races.....(we may have 99% percent of genetic materal the same,but we're all different,VERY different...that's why this life is fun!if we were all alike,it would be very,VERY boring)
so if everything is so individual,how can anyone say 1billion is 'lower race'....
somehow it is like a horoscope,isn't it?
a flawed concept... |
Of course itīs flawed. No one ever said itīs not. But that didnīt stop anyone, apparently.
| QUOTE | | any idea can exist,but flawed concepts tend to evaporate.... |
That so? How long does it take then? Racism still exits, religion still exists, etc...
| QUOTE | | any word must be tolerated,because a word is a basis to all of the civilisation;if man didn't learn to communicate,he would be on level of animal... |
True. But we learned to control what weīre saying as well.
| QUOTE | where do you live?where from are your folks?
you sound frightened from racism... |
No, not at all. Iīm fortunate enough to be white, male, non-smoker and living in a rather peaceful country(Austria).
| QUOTE | | if i said there is crap,it doesn't mean i read it... |
No, but youīve got to have some idea about them.
| QUOTE | also,how do you censor a live-tv?
you can't....they can put 'beep' only afterwards... |
Well, it could be delayed for a second or two. Itīd still be live, but also editable.
| QUOTE | | should i name some horror flicks i watched prior to going to school? |
Hehe, I didnīt say ALL movies. But SOME, especially those on free(non-pay) TV.
| QUOTE | | if you can read croatian,i can get a copy for you.... |
Hmm. I only understand german/english and a bit klingon.
| QUOTE | | some people are interested in what was the hitler's excuse....so why not read his book.... |
Quite frankly, Iīd be interested too - but it still poses quite some danger, as others might find the "arguments" reasonable and try to repeat his actions.
| QUOTE | i say there aren't such situations....
nazi's were saying simillar things....only they went very broad with censorship/sanctions.... |
Thatīs the other extreme, but what if they had never been allowed to spread their mentality?
| QUOTE | | we're discussing everything here;would you like me to cut-out some portions of my posts? |
As I said before, weīve got lots of reasonable people here. Can you read german? Visit www.orf.at and read some of the comments to the articles. Even though itīs moderated, itīs sometimes sickening to read...
| QUOTE | what is 'flame-war'?some internet term?
does it mean " a hot discussion"? |
No, it means mere insults and no discussion at all.
No arguments anymore, mere repetition and foul language.
| QUOTE | | what's more,usually agreement is reached... |
If everyone is interested in discussion, sure, why not. But what if some arenīt interested in discussion, only insulting, not listening, etc?
| QUOTE | | you decribed brain-washing right there.... |
So? Itīs done every day anyway. Why not openly admit it and try to do the right thing?
Just look at all the ads in TV - isnīt that brain-washing as well? You can hardly find arguments in there. (Sometimes not even truth)
| QUOTE | | you cannot teach someone 'how to think'... |
Why not? I mustnīt teach someone WHAT to think, but why should it not be possible to teach to think about something first, instead of merely accepting anything oneīs told?
| QUOTE | | although sometimes striclty following the rules may not be a good thing either.... |
Sure, if itīs just blind following, but if one actually understands the rule, the need for it, whatīs wrong with that?
| QUOTE | | sometimes following a rules will kill you on the road... |
True. If you always swim with the stream, youīll end up in the turbine(of the power plant) sooner or later.
But if you always swim against the stream, youīll end up nowhere.
| QUOTE | | he had it......his followers have it too....but i think german folks learned thier lesson well.....they won't invade anyone anytime soon..... |
I think so too. In fact, I think itīs a good think it happened back then. Any sooner and it wouldnīt have been as good an example, any later, and weīd probably not live anymore.
| QUOTE | | so hitler cannot happen again....but iraq can.... |
You know, if the nazi-ideology werenīt almost illegal(not completely sure about that), Iīd say itīll take only a few decades until it happens again.
| QUOTE | could you ,please,describe one such situation?
i would like to see what would i do in such situation(or perhaps even what DID i do..) |
Well, simple cases happen almost every day. You donīt always show what youīre feeling, do you? Like when your boss comes by, tells you some boring story for the fifth time, you donīt sit there, looking bored and tell him to f.... off, do you?
| QUOTE | ohh,yes there is!
i don't need to be payed for helping people;i'll do it because i adore doing it!just ADORE it....
it makes me feel human... |
Iīm not sure if I made myself clear enough. Thereīs nothing wrong with sacrificing yourself if thereīs something you can achieve.
But, as a bad example, standing in front of a speeding train, trying to stop it, is useless. You canīt win, you canīt even change anything.
| QUOTE | | and it is not 'probably right';it's either right or wrong;if it's wrong,you need to warn me and tell me why is it wrong... |
Only few things are definitely right or wrong, most lie in between.
| QUOTE | | so you live in germany ( ) |
Close, but not quite. I live in Austria. We share the language, itīs almost identical. Good for us, as weīre too insignificant to permit dubbing video. So we import most of it from Germany.
| QUOTE | | fit,as god knows what was cutted too(in video)... |
I donīt think that the video itself is cutted, but weīre using 25fps(PAL), instead of that useless american 29fps(NTSC).
| QUOTE | dub is a complete destruction of a movie....
total,utter crap.... |
Not necessary. Sometimes a movie gains by the dubbing. It heavily depends on the translators and the actors, of course.
Iīm not sure about that, but in the movie "They live", the hidden writings were spoken in the german version, I doubt itīs the same in the english version. It should be, though, as that adds greatly to the feel of the movie.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 4 2004, 04:16 PM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 2432
Member No.: 4935
Joined: 24-June 03
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| QUOTE | | It merely means "absence of power", it doesnīt specify what kind of power. |
one word cannot give you as much data as encyclopedia...
| QUOTE | | So writing and talking is no action to you? |
not in a sense that i went out and killed a person,no...
| QUOTE | | What about books that propagate that view? |
one *will not* forbid a book......any book.....
| QUOTE | | No, never heard of that. Are you describing telepathy? |
no,it's just a form of writing,originated in 19th century(i believe)....i saw this in henry james novels...(but i dunno if he was first one to use this form..as i said joyce and woolf used it afterwards...)
read 'Ulysses',it's good for you...
| QUOTE | | Still, even there I would assume that restrictions are necessary. |
sure,you can have any restrictions you want...or none at all....
| QUOTE | | Yes, but just as I can translate the thought into words, I can translate it into a more physical action. |
doing a ballet? 
no,i don't think such action will beat words....ever....
| QUOTE |
Anyway, the thoughts have to remain free, of course. |
thoughts are comprised of words too....
sure,thoughts can be images or sounds etc. too...
| QUOTE | | but it should be controlled what is being read/heard. |
same as thought is uncontrollable,written or spoken word is...
| QUOTE | | Like movies that are made for 18+ only. |
what is a difference between 16year old and 18 year old?
sure as hell i didn't saw one.....
and then,what is a difference between 18 and 20?
still very non-mature persons...
| QUOTE | | But that didnīt stop anyone, apparently. |
it stopped it in american south and RSA...to a great extent..probably not totally,but to a great extent...
| QUOTE | | How long does it take then? |
it won't happen tomorrow,that's for sure....
| QUOTE | | But we learned to control what weīre saying as well. |
i know you did....
| QUOTE | | as others might find the "arguments" reasonable and try to repeat his actions. |
they won't if they think twice....they won't try to rule the world...
| QUOTE |
but what if they had never been allowed to spread their mentality? |
how do you know which mentality is that,untill they start to preach it?
you're saying that there is still some of that bad stuff in austria/germany?
i know...there is some of it in croatia too....and slovenia,and england and france etc.etc.
| QUOTE | | No, it means mere insults and no discussion at all. |
they won't be letting steam forever;sooner or later they will say something...and then someone will reply...
| QUOTE |
But what if some arenīt interested in discussion, only insulting, not listening, etc? |
well,you cannot comment that,can you:so you tell them "when you start talking,we'll start discussion"....
i mean,you cannot talk to a cow that's sayin "moooo",can you?
if they can't talk,they can't talk....no discussion will take place if one party can't talk...
| QUOTE | | Just look at all the ads in TV - isnīt that brain-washing as well? |
some of the commercials are a work of geniuses....most of it is crap,yes....
people believe commercals?
their right...their money...
| QUOTE | | (Sometimes not even truth) |
sometimes?
commercial want to sell....it doesn't need to be trutthfull at all...
| QUOTE | | I mustnīt teach someone WHAT to think, but why should it not be possible to teach to think about something first, instead of merely accepting anything oneīs told? |
because you can't tell what will he think after...
| QUOTE | | Sure, if itīs just blind following, but if one actually understands the rule, the need for it, whatīs wrong with that? |
i said 'sometimes'
sometimes common sense means more than a rule...
rules are stiff,sense is not...
| QUOTE |
But if you always swim against the stream, youīll end up nowhere. |
or at water-spring?
| QUOTE | | You know, if the nazi-ideology werenīt almost illegal |
it is illegal in austria and germany more than in other countries....
| QUOTE | | Like when your boss comes by, tells you some boring story for the fifth time, you donīt sit there, looking bored and tell him to f.... off, do you? |
actually one time i told my boss that his has weird ideas,after he told me his product would be 'best in the world'...he wasn't too happy about it,but didn't fire me....
i don't work there anymore because i didn't liked the joy;he would be more than happy to keep me...
in another instance(another job) i disagreed that 7200 rpm hdd is required for capping...as that's the truth...truth doesn't hurt.....i will ALWAYS tell the truth....he can be insulted....so what....other time i made a mistake and apologized to him....nothign weird there...
for sure,i would tell him "you told me this story 5 times and i know it;let's hear a new story"
and i would feel exaclty like saying that....
it wouldn't cross my mind to say f*** you to a person who wants to talk to me....ever.....
| QUOTE | | I donīt think that the video itself is cutted |
trust me,it can be...
i've seen it....
it can be cutted,ot it can be extended..either way doesn't work for this toons...
| QUOTE | | Sometimes a movie gains by the dubbing. |
but it looks flawed;they don't say what they say;they open eyes and something else comes out;think how would it be if this happened in real world...huh...
| QUOTE | | Iīm not sure about that, but in the movie "They live", the hidden writings were spoken in the german version, I doubt itīs the same in the english version. It should be, though, as that adds greatly to the feel of the movie. |
what do you mean;
writings in that film MUST be as director(carpenter) ment them to be;ie NOT spoken!
that's editing of the movie!should not happen;
it doesn't matter what is 'better',but what director said!
also,who was speaking those hidden writings?main actor?
so he reads at loud everything he sees?
that seems unnatural...
in that move,i believe he puts the glasses and sees the world as it is.....no need for audio description at all...
carpenters was correct....
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 4 2004, 05:03 PM |
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[edit]Iīve not responded to many parts, as I think Iīve stated my point of view, and read yours - thereīs no need for an endless repetition. Maybe some other time.
| QUOTE | | you're saying that there is still some of that bad stuff in austria/germany? |
Ah - sorry, I should be more specific - that site is from our TV, they host news there. With most articles, itīs possible to post comments, which are, of course, as I would say, moderated by someone. Still, quite often thereīs stuff you wouldīt think someoneīs actually thinking.
| QUOTE | | i mean,you cannot talk to a cow that's sayin "moooo",can you? |
No, and thatīs the point - how do you get a cow away from your lawn, if you obviously canīt talk to it?
| QUOTE | sometimes?
commercial want to sell....it doesn't need to be trutthfull at all... |
AFAIK law forbids telling lies in advertisments. Thank god(or whoever) for that.
Thatīs got nothing to do with free speech - telling blatant lies that will harm someone mustnīt be tolerated. And what some of these ads are telling is close to harming people.
| QUOTE | | QUOTE |
But if you always swim against the stream, youīll end up nowhere. |
or at water-spring? |
Not likely. Youīd have to be a pretty good swimmer to do that.
| QUOTE | | it is illegal in austria and germany more than in other countries.... |
For a good reason, Iīd say. It should be obvious were that ideology leads to.
| QUOTE | | actually one time i told my boss that his has weird ideas,after he told me his product would be "best in the world";...he wasn't too happy about it,but didn't fire me.... |
Thatīs good, but it doesnīt mean that every boss will react that way.
| QUOTE | | it wouldn't cross my mind to say f*** you to a person who wants to talk to me....ever..... |
Usually, neither would I. Though there are instances when I feel like it...
| QUOTE | | but it looks flawed;they don't say what they say;they open eyes and something else comes out;think how would it be if this happened in real world...huh... |
Itīs TV, itīs not real world. Whatīs the alternative? Having subtitles that ruin the picture, losing much of the movie because youīre busy reading?
| QUOTE | what do you mean;
writings in that film MUST be as director(carpenter) ment them to be;ie NOT spoken!
that's editing of the movie!should not happen;
it doesn't matter what is 'better',but what director said!
also,who was speaking those hidden writings?main actor?
so he reads at loud everything he sees?
that seems unnatural... |
I said the hidden writings, not everything written. It was just a voice, not the actor, an almost whispering voice.
The reason for it is quite obvious - the writings are in English, while the national language is German.
You canīt expect anyone who watches the movie to understand english.
Nowadays, these texts are often overlaid by their german equivalent, but back then a voice-over was the solution.
| QUOTE | | in that move,i believe he puts the glasses and sees the world as it is.....no need for audio description at all... |
As I said - the english writings.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 5 2004, 12:46 AM |
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| QUOTE | | AFAIK law forbids telling lies in advertisments. |
?
a joke?
| QUOTE | | Not likely. Youīd have to be a pretty good swimmer to do that. |
| QUOTE | | It should be obvious were that ideology leads to. |
there were such political parties all over the globe at that time....and now...
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Though there are instances when I feel like it... |
me too..but that's AFTER we started to talk...
and then i just say it to him....
in croatian it is "odjebi"(hahah tricked the 'nasty word remover' of this forum)
| QUOTE | | Having subtitles that ruin the picture, losing much of the movie because youīre busy reading? |
you learn to read fast...
and you don't actually lose anything....
ask croatians if they got a particular move...they did...
| QUOTE | | The reason for it is quite obvious - the writings are in English, while the national language is German. |
sometimes they show a german text composed into a frame,or so...
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Nowadays, these texts are often overlaid by their german equivalent, but back then a voice-over was the solution. |
yeap...
btw.you didn't needed to be more specific about ORF,i know what it is,and i even know the meaning of the abbreviation....i think i can even watch ORF,but the trouble is....they dub...
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 5 2004, 07:20 AM |
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| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | AFAIK law forbids telling lies in advertisments. |
?
a joke? |
No? Are you actually saying that itīs alright to tell lies in advertisments? They bend the truth, sure, but they mustnīt lie.
Unless everyoneīs studied biochemistry, physics and such, itīd be quite risky to even remotely believe anything ads tell you, if that were so.
What if the ads told you that itīd be good for your healt to drink only distilled water instead of anything else?
| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | It should be obvious were that ideology leads to. |
there were such political parties all over the globe at that time....and now... |
Yes, and see how much good it has done to us. </sarcasm>
| QUOTE | | QUOTE | | Having subtitles that ruin the picture, losing much of the movie because youīre busy reading? |
you learn to read fast...
and you don't actually lose anything.... |
Are YOU telling me that adding subtitles doesnīt affect quality? That it doesnīt mean a part of the movie will be rendered useless, as thereīs no detail anymore? Here on THIS board?
Youīre joking, right?
As for reading fast - true, but I still have to concentrate on the lower half of the movie, instead of the actual picture.
Also, it means I mustnīt stop looking at the TV.
As I said, when itīs done properly, you donīt notice a difference - unless you know the original voice.
Quite frankly, Iīd prefer a dub of a movie which language I donīt understand, instead of having subs and a language I donīt understand.
Besides, an additional (IMO) positive effect of dubbing is that silence is actually silent. Thereīs no additional noise, as there would be, unless itīs completely taken in a studio.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 5 2004, 01:05 PM |
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do you have any details on how the dub is done(especially regarding the other sounds in film,except the voices)?
i don't see how can this work properly;let's say one mic(on film shooting) is recording a voice,but in the background there is something else (like a band playing);your dubbed version must erase voice,leave background stuff,and then add new voice....
and that can't work well....
the background sound will get distorted after extarcting voice!
so that's why it's messing the directors vision/sound of the movie....
i still hate movie ripped-off from his original sound....
it is a destruction of a work of art!
there are no 'positive' effects fo the dubbing,,it just looks terribly funny along other flaws i mentioned;dutch folks subtitle,croatians do too;so it must be right thing to do!
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