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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 04:44 AM |
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http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?post...ords#post516695
as fred said;
| QUOTE | | Pretty chilling words. Freedom of expression only for those who repeat what you state. You won't tolerate expression of a different opinion so you'll censor it. |
i think doom9 revealed much more in this thread than he planned.....
glad to learn he can watch telly at last(at age of 25)
doom,you missed some decent shows on ARD and ZDF;for example "sendung mit der maus"!
ahh...doom,doom..stop censoring your forum....you don't need that crap....
people talking freely make much more sense than people repeating your words,or people that are on a constant look-out what'll they say,and will you like it....
people that teach dvd-ripping *should* allow freedom of the speech....as their domain exists *because of it*....
FREEDOM OF THE SPEECH TO ALL INTERNET USERS!
[i remember graft talking about doom9 as a place where you wear your nice suit etc.,and.....i hate suits....and censorship  ]
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| phaeron |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 08:06 AM |
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You misunderstood doom9's point.
The value of your freedom of speech is in being heard by others; it is devalued if someone else's speech is so loud that you are drowned out. As such, censorship of the overly loud can be a necessary evil to ensure that everyone is heard. That is the protectionism. However, once it is established that censorship is necessary, it easily becomes a convenient tool to amplify your own voice by silencing everyone else. That's the oppression. Given that the way you complain about suppression of free speech is through free speech, it pays to stay as far as practical from closing the feedback loop.
The problem with the resale of edited movies is that the freedom of speech of the movie producers is diluted by the modified message (the edited movie) that is still associated with their name. It'd be a bit like me creating a separate feed from your posts so that people can read "i4004: the clean version." For the right to say whatever you want to be useful, you need the unfiltered version of your message to be available to everyone. Balancing this with the right of everyone else to hear what they want, however, is the tricky part here.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 05:39 PM |
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avery,that is beside the point;
fact;fred thompson got suspended for no good reason
the particular thread is not so important....
(i'm not interested in doom9 OR fred's standpoints on dvd-ripping,because i'm not interested in dvd-ripping _period_)
important thing is that doom9 is not letting folks argument their stuff(ie to reply to his arguments!that is a freedom of the speech)....as HIS words must be final words....
a particular thread is not important here;i think fred has the wits to understand what doom9 says and to agree if doom9 has nice evidence....but other way around(doom9 actually listening and agreeing if necessary) doesn't seem to work....
THAT is my objection....
say a "wrong" thing,and bang!,doom will be threatening in a matter of minutes....
ohh..yeah,btw. doom9,your article on dvd AR is *flat wrong*!
(that's another example of this doom9 syndrom;folks are afraid to point doom9 at his mistakes;this would be same as if you never got any feedback while developing vdub...pretty terrible,right?)
i was on usenet,you were too:you know censorship is not needed 90% of the time....
and in that 10% of the time,you can prove yourself right easily...few images,or a short clip usually do when words are not enough...
and there is no "balancing" as long as you always tell the truth......there are no calcualtions on what to say,and what to skip...
this is why truth is wonderfull....and freedom is nice because others can teach me if and why i was wrong....can't do that on doom9 forum if someone suspends you,can you?
there is no "overly loud",as on one such person,there will come few wise men,and they will shut him down with a share force of arguments...no censorship is needed....
you're approaching this from a moderate point of view,while i'm just saying that there's no real need for censorhip...there are no good reasons to take away freedom of the speech....if you have solid arguments,you don't need it(censorship)...if you don't,someone will prove you wrong,and that's it:you learned something new...you should be thankfull to freedom of the speech AGAIN!
words ala "hardest codec test known to man"?
ohh..man....what on earth is that?
i think he's just too young to be a central figure of....anything really....
does internet need rules?
how about rules on forbidding adware,malware and spyware,and NOT dictate of mods on particular forum...
so net now needs web-police(to hunt spyware/virus writing scum!),but it needs no freedom of the speech opression,same as there is none in the real world....
about dvd's with commercials on them;why buy them?
i wouldn't buy a thing that will make me watch something i don't want to watch....
if all followed that rule,dvd-makers would throw commercials out in a matter of weeks....(although i don't know how widespread this pest really is,as i don't do dvd-ripping....)
/ivo
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| fccHandler |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 06:37 PM |
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Errm, those forums belong to Doom9 himself. So Fred pisses him off on his own forum? So he suspends Fred. That's not censorship, just good old-fashioned revenge. 
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 09:36 PM |
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hahaha...well said fcc!
excellent!
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 1 2004, 10:18 PM |
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| QUOTE (i4004 @ Jul 1 2004, 06:39 PM) | | while i'm just saying that there's no real need for censorhip...there are no good reasons to take away freedom of the speech....if you have solid arguments,you don't need it(censorship)... |
You are assuming that people are actually LISTENING to arguments, which isn´t true.
Or do you honestly believe that, for example, Nazi germany had GOOD, REASONABLE arguments to do what they did?
Or Bush to invade Iraq?
Sure, they all had arguments. But they were neither true, nor good. To anyone thinking about it, that is.
How many will do that, though?
On boards like this one, or Doom9´s, you´ll mostly find reasonable people, who´ll listen to arguments, so there´s usually no need for censorship indeed. But generally, most people aren´t fit for censorless living.
We wouldn´t have that much murder, were it otherwise.
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 01:32 AM |
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| QUOTE | | You are assuming that people are actually LISTENING to arguments, which isn´t true. |
usually,the problem is not the 'listening',but the 'understanding'!
| QUOTE | | Sure, they all had arguments. |
prior to the election day in germany in 30's,hitler didn't said he'll try to conquer the world....(hitler probably succeeded because of power vacum in germany at the time...ask doom9's dad/grandad for more on that....<wink>.........)
on the election day in usa in 2000,bush didn't said he'll invade iraq just because he THINKS al-qaida is there
you can't have an argument to "invade another country"....you can't find a reason for doing that...
if hitler said (prior to election day) "i'll try to conquer the world,and you'll help me",then everyone would just say "man,hitler is one crazy sod"....and then,he was......
| QUOTE | | We wouldn´t have that much murder, were it otherwise. |
we don't have that much murders here...
you should not mix freedom of the speech to a murder...i mean,yes,someone might actually kill you for the things you said,but does this mean you should not say those things?
or that a lunatic killed you?
if lunatic kills you,you'll go 
LOL!
freedom of the speech is a guaranteed right of every person!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights (i think some wild american added "to carry guns" there... nope.carrying guns goes to that "prohibited" category!))
a murder is a prohibited act,and police is here to see it's stays prohibited....you don't murder a person because he said something...you may,but in doing that you are aware that you're doing time in nearby jail....(or you're not aware of it,but you'll do time anyway... )
if i tell a second person "kill the third person",and he does it,then 2nd person says(in the court) "he told me to kill him" a judge may say "a lousy excuse to kill a person"...heh...
a preamble to Universal Declaration of Human Rights is here,read and understand;
| QUOTE | | Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people, |
for me,doom9 forum was just "fear factory"...i never ecountered such thing before or after on the internet...internet is ALL about freedom,so doom9 conduct surprises me...
and you should go;
"On boards like this one, you´ll mostly find reasonable people, who´ll listen to arguments, so there´s usually no need for censorship indeed."
you WILL mostly find reasonable people everywhere,but you'll find more than a handfull of unreasonable mods over at doom9..a young folks...doom9 included...
he says he needs to protect his readers?
NO!
readers read everything and decide what has more value!
this would be same as me having only a books of particular ideology or orientation..(i'm afraid parallel to nazism springs out anytime anyone discusses censorship)
it beats me how can a forum that propagates illegal activity(ripping dvd's and usage of xvid) do any censoring(it should FIGHT any censoring)....i just wrote to wilbert;it's like a "moral codex of a gangster".....like the 'godfather'movies...
yes,sure that mob scum has high moral values...why would they be gangsters otherwise...
that is what i mind!
there was a documentary by noam chomsky
"manufacturing consent",and in my experience,doom9 forum is "manufacturing fear",as for example,how can fred write on that forum anytime in the future....he'll be on constant look-out;"uhmm...will doom9 like this"
no way to spend you web-time!
for example,go over at doom9 xvid forum and say "xvid is crap on noise"....
it's doesn't matter what users will say,but mods will smack you,as that's sacrilige!
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| Cyberman |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 08:08 AM |
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| QUOTE | | usually,the problem is not the 'listening',but the 'understanding'! |
That I doubt.Were they listening, but not understanding, they´d ask for clarification. Or at least think about it.
| QUOTE | | prior to the election day in germany in 30's,hitler didn't said he'll try to conquer the world. |
True. But even afterwards many agreed with his ideas and didn´t find any flaw in the logic that the Jews are the source of all evil.
| QUOTE | | on the election day in usa in 2000,bush didn't said he'll invade iraq just because he THINKS al-qaida is there |
No, he didn´t. But when he started, there still were many who cheered and thought it a good idea to do so, because his "arguments" were so good.
| QUOTE | | we don't have that much murders here... |
I was neither referring to a single country, nor to single murder. What I meant is that even today, in civilized times, as one might think, too many people die because some have been driven into a hate-rage - surely there are good arguments against killing people just because of their skin color, or culture?
But apparently some aren´t listening to arguments. Or not understanding them, which I find hard to believe...
| QUOTE | | i mean,yes,someone might actually kill you for the things you said, |
I didn´t mean THAT. But what if someone killed me for things someone else said about people like me?
Do you think it´d be a good idea if, let´s say, parents taught(teached?) their kids that everyone except white men are inferior?
Do you actually believe any argument could counter that, years later?
| QUOTE | | freedom of the speech is a guaranteed right of every person! |
Yes, so? Freedom of speech doesn´t grant you the right to insult someone, or imply that they´re inferior, does it?
| QUOTE | | if i tell a second person "kill the third person",and he does it,then 2nd person says(in the court) "he told me to kill him" a judge may say "a lousy excuse to kill a person"...heh... |
Right. But what if you told that person that some cultural class is evil and only intend on harming us, and such.
And this person then kills someone of that culture - whos fault would it be?
Only the killers, or yours as well?
| QUOTE | | you WILL mostly find reasonable people everywhere,but you'll find more than a handfull of unreasonable mods over at doom9..a young folks...doom9 included... |
i won´t comment on Doom9, as I haven´t been there long enough to judge, but I haven often enough seen places where people exercised their "freedom of speech" by raging against other cultures, stating that whenever some crime happened, it surely has been "a foreigner" or an immigrant again, even without knowing any details.
You want that stuff to remain open on the web, so others will read it, and perhaps even believe it, resulting in more hate?
| QUOTE | | it beats me how can a forum that propagates illegal activity(ripping dvd's and usage of xvid) do any censoring(it should FIGHT any censoring) |
Why should they fight censoring? Out of some pseudo-idealistic revolting spirit? Like "do everything different just to be different"?
They chose to propagate dvd-ripping. Fine. That doesn´t mean that the place has to be free of rules, does it?
[edit]stupid spelling.
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| thegreenling |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 05:04 PM |
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If you buy something like a CD or DVD, it's legal to make a copy therefrom. It's even not illegal to talk about, how to make a copy. It's prohibited to deal with such copys.
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Someone said: "The freedom of someone ends, where the freedom of the other one starts!" If you think obout it, it could mean: Everybody is responsible for the freedom of the next. It's a question of respect and confidence.
It seams that humans must fight everytime against somthing. No problem, but how to prevent that trey fight eachother to the death? (any celebrity in here ;-)
And how to stop a WHEEL, if it is powered by a nation? Destroy the whole nation? |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 08:22 PM |
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| QUOTE | | Were they listening, but not understanding, they´d ask for clarification. Or at least think about it. |
they would?
reasonable people would....
| QUOTE | Do you think it´d be a good idea if, let´s say, parents thaught their kids that everyone except white men are inferior?
Do you actually believe any argument could counter that, years later? |
what does "thaught" mean?
does it mean that if my dad told me something i am repeating it till i die?
no it doesn't....
a simple argument can counter that;"why are other races different"?
he can't answer it?
you won....
he can answer it?
you lose...
| QUOTE |
Yes, so? Freedom of speech doesn´t grant you the right to insult someone, or imply that they´re inferior, does it? |
offcourse it does!
freedom is freedom;you don't measure it!
it is a full,complete,non-restricted freedom....
i can say anything,i can insult anyone,i can do whatever i please...
| QUOTE | Right. But what if you told that person that some cultural class is evil and only intend on harming us, and such.
And this person then kills someone of that culture - whos fault would it be?
Only the killers, or yours as well? |
people are held responsible for their deeds....
i told you to kill a bourgeois member of society?
you killed him?
YOU killed him!
i didn't....
you can find hatred,evil,racism,anti-semisitsm etc. in many,MANY books...but they are NOT forbidden books!you DON'T censor!ANYTHING!
you JUST DON'T CENSOR!
these books explicityl(or not) say that one should eradicate other races,but they are not censored!
and you can find them in any bookstore...
generally,it can be said that "i did it because he told me" is an excuse of children (saw that simpsons episode where bart was the "i didn't do it" boy?)
a wise man does this;look at the story from many differnet angles,and decide which one is the correct angle...
| QUOTE | | i won´t comment on Doom9, as I haven´t been there long enough to judge, but I haven often enough seen places where people exercised their "freedom of speech" by raging against other cultures, stating that whenever some crime happened, it surely has been "a foreigner" or an immigrant again, even without knowing any details. |
let me tell you an example;
in doom9 thread about war on iraq there was one jew and one palestine or arab(or they weren't,but i go the impression they were);let me say it;
if yews suffered at ww2,this doesn't mean they can do anything they want in that area they got from UN and allies...and it doesn't mean that palestines should resort to terrorism!(but you must understand a palestines too;they don't have tanks to fight israel;why do they fight at all?let's say you're an arab that lived in palestine(prior to '48.) here comes UN and says "this is palestine no more,it is isreal and jews live/rule here..." and you go "come again?"... ..same applies to IRA,ETA etc.)
they need to talk(and ultimately,you DON'T just erase one country from the map=i didn't find a 'palestine' nowhere near to israel on map);and i was interested in one jews and one arab point of view,but no..doom9 erases the complete (in essence anti-war!) thread:THAT is how the wars start,my friend!with intolerance,with the choking of discussion!
a war doesn't start if arab and a jew are talking to each other...
those discussions may get pretty hot,but so what?
if someone said foreigners did it,then you just tell him he's worse person than bart simpsons...
i was interested in what both sides have to say on issue of warfare,as they fight constantly for last 50years(since israel was established)
for sure,they also fought since the dawn of man too,as jews are a very religious folks;and in the books of those ultra religious folks(and in old testamnet too.. ) you can find stuff as "yews are a chosen nation".....
this means arabs are not...
and,same as you asked that rasist "why are other races different?",arabs ask "why are you chosen?"
it is worth noting that judaism is the oldest religion...
in catolicism or islam,i doubt you'll find "we were the chosen folks".....i'm sure there's no such thing in catolicism(or protestantism),but they had crusades of their own...i didn't read kuran...
you won't find this in gnosticism(thumbs up for an idea! ),hindu,budism either...
luckily,in modern world,religion will have less and less significance...a passage of time proves this to be a fact...(just look at dutch folks... )
obviously this particular conflict is VERY complicated indeed,but that's a reason more to discuss it!!!
closing discussions does NOT help!
jews say that they don't have anyone to talk to,as arafat is a terrorist;let's face it;that's correct_arafat was terrorist....
so situation seems bleak,again..
i'm sad these two nations suffer because they canot sit and talk...talk means "willing to compromise" in this situation....
and i don't live there,BUT i wanna know what average jew says,and what average arab(palestine) says!
and i wanna read it from their 'keyboard'....
NOT from the arab or isreali newspapers!
THAT is the power of internet!!!
| QUOTE | | You want that stuff to remain open on the web, so others will read it, and perhaps even believe it, resulting in more hate? |
if you have only one opinion that states "kill jews,they are scum",perhaps....
but then i come to that thread and ask "prove the thing you just said!i say they are human beings!"
and that't freedom of the speech!
you can talk,BUT SO CAN I!
| QUOTE | | They chose to propagate dvd-ripping. Fine. That doesn´t mean that the place has to be free of rules, does it? |
offcourse,this is correct!
he doesn't need to be as free as i like it to see(it is HIS forum after all,and he may do whatever he pleases),BUT let him not be surprised when i spit on his censorship policies!
and you don't have to be surprised either.
i say;learn from this forum,learn from neuron2 forum,learn from ars-technica forum,learn from usenet,etc.
i say;reflect a real life;reflect a freedom everyone has!
i said,if me,graft and fred were to sit with this 25 old year kid(there are 25 years old men,but he's a kid),and explain few things to him,he would act differently (if he can listen and understand!).
we were all in fights with him because of his hypocrisy(not to go into details,but the correct word must be "HYPOCRISY",as fred said...)
so i can understand a case where a man went away from doom9 forum and erased everything he ever written there...
sure,this is wrong,as doom9 community is not doom9 alone,and doom9 seems like he never reads real video processing stuff anyway;he's just concerned with DMCA and simillar crap lately...
so that man was wrong to erase everything,BUT I UNDERSTAND HIM!
i can't understand doom9;i will never understand hypocrisy......i will never understand a person who can keep wrong article on dvd-AR for sooo long time....
i mean i couldn't care less about AR of dvd,but wrong data is wrong data!people are reading it and then i have to correct same mistakes of doom9 EVERY TIME!
honesty,truth,admission of mistakes is a life i wanna pursue....
so there is no place for me on doom9,as even if i make a mistake,i won't be let apologize for it(if i was proven wrong),as doom9 may kick me out before i do that....
no place for me in doom9's 'fear factory'....
'stick to the subject'?
i will tell you a bit of background,i'll tell you why i did it,i'll tell you why other method is wrong,and i'll tell you;"if you can prove me wrong,please do!"....
i can slide to offtopic if i want'(one thing leads to another,like in any conversation,you can't say to a person "we will discuss only this today"!)....not as much as loadus,but man,his offtopic is worth more than 10 useless answers,and a great addition to a nice answer!
what a wonderfully funny person!
he wouldn't pass 5 posts mark on doom9 with such behaviour!
i passed 500,but frankly,i was one being crazy for putting up with it....luckily,some good came from me being there long time ago;for example new capping guide is up....
i didn't contribute because of doom9(what does he know about video processing anyway?he's using bilinear resizer+fielddeinterlace on his codec tests) but because old versions were wrong,and because wilbert asked me to help,and because i gave him my word much earlier....
and THAT guy(wilbert) can ask me anything,and i'll do my best to help him EVERYTIME!
no matter on what forum he is!
it was my personal pleasure to work with wilbert,arachnotron and trevlac!
a great honour!
so thanks flies to wilbert for inviting me!
i believe we succeeded in making a decent capping/processing guide;4(four) of us!
but armed with experience(problem solving for other folks,listening and understanding people etc.) of thousands!('give the credit where the credit is due!')
armed with experience of free speech!
man,you can't beat that!
and that is the truth;if someone can prove me wrong,he's welcomed to do so,as i would hate to live my life in delusion...i would hate to live without hearing everyone's voice...
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 09:09 PM |
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thegreenling,a mere existance of css(and subsequent decss) show that companies that make dvd's DON'T WANT YOU TO COPY DVD's!
in any way or form!
this is where all the discussion stops!
they made dvd and they don't want you to copy it!
on another level,usage of xvid is forbidden;nobody payed to mpeg-la to use it!
3ivx did,divx5 did,xvid didn't;
so dvd-ripping/encoding to xvid is breaking a law on two spots:
you're breaking a dvd copyright(listen to the word "copy-right"...you don't have the right to copy it!
law says it!) AND you're using forbidden codec;doom9 can do any DMCA analysys he pleases,but on that dvd-disc you can read;copying is prohibited!
end of story!
dvd-manufacturing industry/mpeg-la will win every time!EVERY TIME!
i and fcc have repeated few times;there is no justification to make a dvd-copy!
you are giving dvd's as a toys for your children?
why should dvd manufacturer be concerned?
it would be same as me buying a new bike,and giving it to someone who never rode a bike before;nope!
you're not riding my bike,and dvd disc is not children's toy!
you say ripping is justified just because there are some commercials on beginning?
don't tell me all dvd-manufacturers are doing it?
if they do,boycott the industry;dont' buy dvds!
these are the facts!
when we had only records/record players,this was non-issue as who could afford buying record plant to illegally copy records( )
today,anyone can copy anything,so you feel threatened because copyright law exists?
your father felt threat because he was buying records?
as opposed to renting a record and copying it for his "own personal usage"?
i said,don't believe everything you read on doom9..what are they suppose to say?
"we rip dvd's,its' illegal,and we use xvid which is equally illegal...but that's a good thing"
dvd-industry and mpeg-la can shut down that site anytime they want.they don't,because they don't care;they mind chinese dvd-copiers who do it on a large scale,and doom9 site is not making thousands of copies everyday....so they don't care:not many people overall 'backup' their dvd's....
mpeg-la recently shut down YMPEG...you know why?
because vdub is popular,and YMPEG is vdub plug-in,so they saw some threat.....this was not a big threat to a mpeg2 cow they are millking,but there....
they just said;"people,we made this,this is ours!wanna use it?pay for it!"
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| stephanV |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 09:54 PM |
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| QUOTE | | luckily,in modern world,religion will have less and less significance...a passage of time proves this to be a fact...(just look at dutch folks... ) |
now what did i do? 
Personally i dont know about "freedom of speech"... its so ambigious how i feel about it:
On one hand i think everyone should be allowed to say anything they want, but on the other i think that there should be some sort of limit/boundry. But then of course the question arises where to put the boundry? And thats difficult because its arbitrary so it could be put anywhere. And as one set of morals/ethics is just as good (or bad) as another one (theres no measure stick for that, or they are themselves arbitrary), any boundry would do just fine. But then the whole concept of censorship cancels itself out; you should either censor everything (which doesnt make sense) or nothing at all.
Thus freedom of speech lies not in our right to say anything we want, but in our right to disagree with everything we want. He has his view, you have yours. Then you discuss it and the result will be a consensus in which a new view is given birth or an agreement to disagree and thats fine, sometimes two opposite things still can be both right (e.g. white is not better than black) This will of course only hold for reasonable people.
So the only question that remains is how to deal with unreasonable people? Well, we shouldn't, because we can't. For all we know we might be the unreasonable people ourselves. The boundry between whats reasonable or not is just as arbitrary as the boundry for censorship. Thus everybody's reasonable (to his/her own extend) or no one is. I know I am, so it must mean you are all too.
My argument only holds for subjective points of view of course; people who say "the earth is flat" and "1+1 = 3" are just plain crazy (assuming they have the same defintions for those terms as i do). On objectivity there is no room for debate: its either true or false.
Now where did i leave that joint?
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useful links:
VirtualDub, Input plugins and filters, AviSynth, AVI-Mux GUI, AC3ACM by fcchandler, VirtualDub FAQ |
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 2 2004, 10:47 PM |
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uhu,a nice philosophical effort by stephan there...
needless to say,i loved it!
in netherlands,they also grow nice marijuana,it seems!
<wink>
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| fccHandler |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 03:42 AM |
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Administrator n00b
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| QUOTE (i4004 @ Jul 2 2004, 06:47 PM) | | in netherlands,they also grow nice marijuana,it seems! |
 Wha? Perhaps phaeron was right.
Shall we make "i4004: the clean version"? 
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| i4004 |
| Posted: Jul 3 2004, 04:24 AM |
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