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| evropej |
| Posted: Aug 9 2011, 01:58 AM |
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Thanks for all the information.
Its definitely useful to anyone from the newbie to the pro.
Getting a tip such as cleaning the cpu is sometimes overlooked until reminded.
I ordered some good thermal compound and that is the last thing I was missing from the whole picture.
I should have the maximum configuration for my setup and it should perform at peak performance.
I run the H50 now with two 12CM fans on the radiator blowing out, I have two 12CM fans in front blowing in, I have an 18CM on top blowing out, PSU has 12CM fan and GPU has its own fans as well.
I run prime95 and I get max 70C or so on a core i7 950 running at 4.14GHz.
My goal is to get another 10C or so from the H80 and get the clock speed up to 4.6GHz.
At this point, this is a science project lol.
Now I am like a little kid waiting for the deliveries to come in lol
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 9 2011, 01:16 PM |
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Your saying the nail varnish remover will remove the thermal paste or sticky thermal tape ? Or both ?
Will be using that if can remove thermal paste to have nice clean cpu again. Removing old thermal paste is no easy task sometimes on a friends pc when they applied to much paste way back.
Used to see thermal paste that would glue the heat sink years back. Don't see that one anymore, needed some a while ago. For a gfx card to fix lighter heat sink than the huge heavy one it has.
Those 12cm fans we use now get a good one (even cheaper ones) they are far quieter than many older psu fans. I changed long ago all psu units so they all now have 12cm in them, the noise difference is huge much quieter. Also read they say most if not all 12cm fans have standard three wire cpu type molex type connection. Where as previous psu fans you would have to desolder/solder a new fan to the psu pcb.
Not sure of the weight those Hxx units you are fixing to the cpu, dislike heavy weights fix to vertical motherboards in a tower case. No problem if motherboard is horizontal and in a desktop case. With today's lightweight toughened metals weight shouldn't be a problem if they are made with them, leakage is first thought then how heavy |
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| freedomdwarf |
| Posted: Aug 9 2011, 02:11 PM |
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| QUOTE | | Your saying the nail varnish remover will remove the thermal paste or sticky thermal tape ? Or both ? |
It completely cleaned the crap off my CPU and the sticky stuff pre-applied to the copper base of the cooler block (which isn't tape)... so, YES, it does.
| QUOTE | | Those 12cm fans we use now get a good one (even cheaper ones) they are far quieter than many older psu fans. I changed long ago all psu units so they all now have 12cm in them, the noise difference is huge much quieter |
I haven't seen any PSU fan that is 12cm. All the ones I have ever seen are 8cm in-built ones and in most cases are not changeable as they are soldered inside the PSU on the controller board. Many PSU's these days (particularly the higher wattage ones) now sport an extra side and/or bottom 8cm fan - that is what I was refering to. I have seen many PSU's (I have about 20 or more of them here including my new 1,000W one) and none of them are capable of fitting a 12cm replacement fan inside even if I soldered them in - they just aren't big enough to take 12cm!
I'm not talking about case fans - they are completely different. A lot of standard ATX cases cannot take a 12cm case fan as the air vent/grille(s) are only designed for 8cm case fans. If you have any sort of 'gaming' or 'extreme' case then those are designed for those bigger fans.
| QUOTE | | Not sure of the weight those Hxx units you are fixing to the cpu, dislike heavy weights fix to vertical motherboards in a tower case |
The actual CPU cooler block that is fitted to the motherboard weighs LESS than the stock fan cooler with it's aluminium heat-sink. The heavier item (the radiator full of cooling solution and the 12cm fans) is bolted to the main chassis casing where the air vent/grille is - not on the motherboard. That's the beauty of these sealed-system solutions! I don't know of any water-cooling solution that has a huge CPU cooler block - I think you are getting confused with those whopping great air coolers like the Coolermaster V8/V10 or the Noctua NH-D14 etc.
| QUOTE | | With today's lightweight toughened metals weight shouldn't be a problem if they are made with them |
I don't know of and have never seen a case chassis that's made of anything else other than toughened alloy or pressed steel - the motherboard and other stuff need that for proper safety gounding (earth). Sure, there are plastic/perspex covers etc... but not used for the main chassis.
| QUOTE | | ...leakage is first thought then how heavy |
These units are factory sealed and have a 5-year guarantee.
Can you say that about any case fan?
Because I haven't seen any guarantee with any fan I have bought from anywhere.
The weight issue just doesn't exist - I've already covered that.
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 9 2011, 05:47 PM |
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Good news for cleaning cpu's will do that
Thought i would mention not to forget the psu fan. Which the 12cm ones are now quiet, meant psu fans not cpu or chassis.
Ok cooling block attached to inside of the case. Since you have pipes with liquid running in them. What about cutting direct line from cpu upwards and having the block onto of the pc. Or out the back if have room to cut holes and attach there. On to better since heat rises and so disperses quickly. Outside on the back will contend with psu exhaust maybe. Maybe the holes you cut are bigger than tube so can put a thick plastic clip ring over lip of the cut so no sharp edges able cut the plastic tube carrying the liquid coolant to the block. If on top then also could have still back case fans to take any remaining heat that cpu fan and pc parts are generating. If putting cooling block on top of the pc maybe ideal if place some non heat conduction cool material under. So no heat is generated back into the case itself.
Toughened metals was meaning what the cooling block was made of. Some metals remain cooler than others which would be more ideal.
Nice that they have included a guarantee for a liquid cooled pc cooler. Will be interesting to see what other companies start to offer to compete with them.
Another reason to put cooler on outside if possible. Since maybe the guarantee doesn't cover everything else in the case at the time of failure ? |
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| freedomdwarf |
| Posted: Aug 9 2011, 10:39 PM |
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| QUOTE | | Thought i would mention not to forget the psu fan. Which the 12cm ones are now quiet, meant psu fans not cpu or chassis. |
Unless I go out and specifically try to find a specialist gaming PSU I couldn't fit a 12cm fan in any PSU I've seen for sale here because none of them have room for a 12cm fan to be fitted. As I said in my last post - they are all 8cm and I've never seen a PSU with 12cm fans!
| QUOTE | | Ok cooling block attached to inside of the case. Since you have pipes with liquid running in them. What about cutting direct line from cpu upwards and having the block onto of the pc. Or out the back if have room to cut holes and attach there. |
AFAIK, the cooling tubes are double-lined and factory sealed. Cutting them would be murder to re-seal them and you'd void your warranty. If you want to muck about with the way it's made - go buy a RASA kit and do it all yourself.
BTW: the cooling block is mounted on the CPU, not the casing.
Don't get the cooling block and the radiator assembly mixed up.
| QUOTE | | On to better since heat rises and so disperses quickly |
Heat will get pushed around the case wherever you want to push it with fans - within the small confines of a case there is negligable convection so that is a mute point.
As CorsairGeorge (Corsair's hardware Rep) commented on another forum, it's like lighting a match inside a hangar... sure it heats the air around it and eventually (if it burned for long enough) you would feel the convection it created.
| QUOTE | | Outside on the back will contend with psu exhaust maybe |
very unlikely. As with the convection, it's a mute point. It also depends if your PSU blows outwards or sucks inwards - all of mine are intake, not exhaust.
| QUOTE | | Maybe the holes you cut are bigger than tube so can put a thick plastic clip ring over lip of the cut so no sharp edges able cut the plastic tube carrying the liquid coolant to the block. If on top then also could have still back case fans to take any remaining heat that cpu fan and pc parts are generating |
Again, unless you have a gaming/extreme case, the only place to mount these radiators are on the back plate on the inside of the case where the exhaust vent/grille is and it generally replaces the usual one or two 8cm case fans that are found in most ATX cases. I don't own any such gaming cases and from what I've seen, I wouldn't want one because most of them look hideous and bulky. These 12cm fans are more than capable of pushing 92cfm which is ample for most people. If you need much more than this then you need to go the DIY route.
See my second point above.
| QUOTE | | If putting cooling block on top of the pc maybe ideal if place some non heat conduction cool material under. So no heat is generated back into the case itself. |
The cooling block doesn't get hot and the radiator doesn't get any warmer than the ambient case temperature - that's the idea of the push-pull fans... to exhaust the slightly warmer air and keep the radiator cool. If you bothered to have a look at the way it's put together you'll see that the radiator is completely electrically & thermally isolated by the fans on either side! The radiator doesn't touch the casing except by the screws holding it in place. If you want to mount a radiator externally then none of the H-series or closed-loop systems are suitable for what you want because you're taking them apart and they are not designed for that... go buy a DIY kit.
| QUOTE | | Toughened metals was meaning what the cooling block was made of. Some metals remain cooler than others which would be more ideal. |
I think just about every CPU water-cooling block is made of copper (or a strong copper-type alloy) - it doesn't make any sense to make it from any other material as copper is the most heat-conductive material available for mass-manufacture.
Most radiators are made from an aluminium alloy for lightness and the fins are usually aluminium alloy or copper.
| QUOTE | | Nice that they have included a guarantee for a liquid cooled pc cooler. Will be interesting to see what other companies start to offer to compete with them. |
I think you'll find every retailer/OEM offer a guarantee of 3 or more years for an off-the-shelf closed-loop water-cooling system. If you go the DIY route then you're on your own.
| QUOTE | | Another reason to put cooler on outside if possible. Since maybe the guarantee doesn't cover everything else in the case at the time of failure ? |
Corsair stand by their guarantee and will replace other components if they are damaged by a failure of one of their H-series closed systems. I can't speak for any other manufacturer though.
As I said earlier - if you want to fit the radiator assembly outside of the chassis then you have to go the DIY route as there is NO closed-loop system on the market that does it at present.
I suggest you go to one of the hundreds of review sites and have a look at what it is and how it's constructed and most will explain how it's fitted too.
From your type of questions you have absolutely no idea about water-cooling systems - I suggest you do some research about the subject and get some idea of what it's all about before you start spouting some really crazy and impossible/illogical ideas and suggestions.
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 01:40 PM |
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This talk you would still retain the guarantee on the H80 you have as would not be modified. You have a psu that blows cool air inwards! You have also other devices that also generate heat hdd, southbridge, gfx etc!. |
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| freedomdwarf |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 02:51 PM |
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| QUOTE | | What about cutting direct line from cpu upwards and having the block onto of the pc. Or out the back if have room to cut holes and attach there |
Are you some sort of Houdini or Penn & Teller???
There is no way whatsoever of having any part of any retail closed-loop water-cooling kit on the outside of a case! Unless you cut some huge holes in the case (which is likely to weaken it) or modifying how it's been manufactured (hose length etc) it's just not possible.
| QUOTE | | You have a psu that blows cool air inwards |
I don't know of any PSU fan that blows COOL air! By the time the air has travelled over the components of your power supply it's pretty warm - even if your PC isn't doing anything!
| QUOTE | | You have also other devices that also generate heat hdd, southbridge, gfx etc |
HDD's shouldn't get that hot - anything aproaching 60ºC for any length of time and you are running the risk of a total crash/failure. My southbridge has cooling fins on it (but no fan) and my northbridge has it's own proprietory heat-sink & fan - neither are particularly warm even under heavy load for hours/days on end and they shouldn't be getting hot either. GPU's that generate any sort of heat have their own heat-sink and fan and any normal 8cm case fan will cope with whatever that can throw into a case. If your ambient case temperature is above 50ºC or so for any length of time then you have a serious heat issue that needs to be sorted out or you are inviting component failure.
I noted that evropej said he had 12cm PSU fans so maybe you have them where you are but they certainly aren't common over here yet unless you buy specialised equipment. He also says he has an 18cm fan on top blowing out - my case isn't even 18cm wide and it's the biggest/widest case we have here and I have more than 30 to choose from all stacked in a cupboard and piled up in my bedroom!
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| dloneranger |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 03:07 PM |
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You need a new tape measure 
All the cases we have are at least 20cm wide, the psu fans are mainly 135mm though
That's a pretty standard size on psu's, though the cheap and crappy ones tend to put in 80mm ones
HDD's can get plenty hot - the upper limits for our drives are 60 degrees for the rooms ambient temperature
That said, the 7 in this case run between 20 to 40 degrees
Water cooling does squat for that
The cooling on this is just 1 120mm fan at the front blowing in, and the psu blowing out - and it never gets close to overheating, though it's encoding all day/night
Then again, we don't bother with the overclocking - if we wanted a faster cpu, we'd just get a faster cpu, none of that messing about with water rigs, and piddling about on voltages/bus speeds
Seriously, I've seen people spend twice as much on water cooling as it would have cost to just buy the parts that were rated at the speeds they reached
(and if the fastest cpu is too slow - just wait 6 months, there'll be faster ones by then)
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 05:00 PM |
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@freedomdwarf last word when i say cut a hole i meant cut for width of pipe to fit through, not hole for the radiator. Would mean a a narrow channel but easy to fix back as strong if needed to be.
-vdub- .. Outside on the back will contend with psu exhaust maybe
freedomdwarf .. very unlikely. As with the convection, it's a mute point. It also depends if your PSU blows outwards or sucks inwards - all of mine are intake, not exhaust.
Psu i have had and now got all exhaust air through the psu from inside the case to outside of the case. I'm reading your psu does the opposite of this that it intakes sucking air into the pc case.
Nothing wrong with that expect for noise of the air been forced through any all case holes available. Pc in a hot room/office in hot weather psu would also suck in all that hot humid air. Or maybe you meant the psu exhausts air from inside of the case to outside of the case. The reason why your pc is so quiet when its turned on. |
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 05:22 PM |
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| QUOTE (dloneranger @ Aug 10 2011, 03:07 PM) | You need a new tape measure
All the cases we have are at least 20cm wide, the psu fans are mainly 135mm though
That's a pretty standard size on psu's, though the cheap and crappy ones tend to put in 80mm ones
HDD's can get plenty hot - the upper limits for our drives are 60 degrees for the rooms ambient temperature
That said, the 7 in this case run between 20 to 40 degrees
Water cooling does squat for that
The cooling on this is just 1 120mm fan at the front blowing in, and the psu blowing out - and it never gets close to overheating, though it's encoding all day/night
Then again, we don't bother with the overclocking - if we wanted a faster cpu, we'd just get a faster cpu, none of that messing about with water rigs, and piddling about on voltages/bus speeds
Seriously, I've seen people spend twice as much on water cooling as it would have cost to just buy the parts that were rated at the speeds they reached
(and if the fastest cpu is too slow - just wait 6 months, there'll be faster ones by then) |
I think the same never overclock cpu, gfx etc preferring long life from all pc components and software to run without crashes or problems. I agree if need better buy better. Over clockers in general are the gamers that i read overclock the most. To attain the performance of what the game been played is capable of.
Haven't ever modded any case and think on the whole modded cases don't look that appealing. Two friends in the past at different times had self modded their cases. Mentioned some ideas they implemented that made the modification better for pc use. |
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| freedomdwarf |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 06:21 PM |
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@ dloneranger -
| QUOTE | All the cases we have are at least 20cm wide, the psu fans are mainly 135mm though
That's a pretty standard size on psu's, though the cheap and crappy ones tend to put in 80mm ones |
None of mine are that wide... not a single one! Even my 'server' tower that stands some 40"+ tall isn't that wide! As I've commented before, unless I search for a case that's described as a specialist 'gamer' or 'extreme' case - they just aren't that wide here. I asked a local friend of mine who also seems to have a number of PC's and a collection of cases - none of his are 20cm wide either. I've just measured my case (it's the widest one I have here) and it's barely 19.4cm wide on external dimensions. Take off almost 5mm each side for the side panels & clips to close them onto the chassis... that makes a MAX width of 18.5cm. So if I wanted to have an 18cm case fan fitted into the top of my chassis that'll leave me with barely 2.5mm either side of the fan to secure it. And it wouldn't fit across there unless I cut out a slot from both sides of the supporting metal case braces where the side panels clip into. It would also have to fit between the back of my DVD burners and the rear end of my PSU where all the cables come out - and it would fit, just.
There's no way on this earth am I going to pay out more just for a case than it costs for my motherboard or my water-cooler.
| QUOTE | | That's a pretty standard size on psu's, though the cheap and crappy ones tend to put in 80mm ones |
I've been to many computer fairs and visited many retail shops recently. Unless I buy specialist 'gamer' cases etc, 12cm fans in PSU's or even case fans is NOT 'standard' size here. You say the 'cheap and crappy ones' fit 8cm PSU fans.... That may well be true where you are but it's pretty 'normal' here. Again, as I commented earlier, I have never seen a PSU over here with 12cm fans!
| QUOTE | | Then again, we don't bother with the overclocking - if we wanted a faster cpu, we'd just get a faster cpu, none of that messing about with water rigs, and piddling about on voltages/bus speeds |
I'm only just slightly overclocked from the stock 2.66GHz to 2.76GHz which ramps my FSB from the usual 1333MHZ to 1381MHz. I'm not into seriously OC'ing for the sake of it. I agree with you in that if you want something faster, just go buy a faster whatever. Beats the heck out of playing silly buggers with voltages etc. That's also why a good bunch of us like these closed-loop systems - not too expensive, easy to fit, don't need to worry about other stuff on the mobo and it's a lot neater (and less stress on the CPU mounting) than those huge great air-cooling D14's etc. I don't see the need in spending a mint on a custom water-cooler.
As for ambient temperature, I guess a lot depends where you live. In our house the ambient room temp is around 24-26ºC and rarely drops below 18ºC even at night.
As for the workplace, most of the offices I have been into are either air-conditioned or they don't have top-end kit and certainly don't run the sort of apps that tax the system in any way - so heat is never a problem for them.
@ vdub -
| QUOTE | | when i say cut a hole i meant cut for width of pipe to fit through, not hole for the radiator. Would mean a a narrow channel but easy to fix back as strong if needed to be |
How are you going to feed the pipe through a hole?? They are factory-sealed at both ends!
You will need to cut the pipe (which voids your warranty) and it would be almost impossible to re-join them as effectively as if they hadn't been cut. Alternatively, you would need to cut a slot as wide as the pipes from the edge of the chassis - and that would certainly destroy any integrity of the case!
So how would you do this?? I can't see how it's possible.
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| dloneranger |
| Posted: Aug 10 2011, 07:43 PM |
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@freedomdwarf
You're UK?
Just looked at scan.co.uk (I rate them quite high - love the sms messages telling me what hour the parcels will arrive)
Loads of psu's use 120mm fans, from cheap to expensive
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/600w-psu-co...iet-fan-atx-v23
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/600w-psu-st...et-fan-atx-v203
You can see from the pics that the fans are the full size of the psu's on most of them
http://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardwa...plies/600w-700w
They're usually quite a bit quieter than the smaller ones, which is nice
Re the width - that'll be the difference, then - these cases are only about £30 each, and are as basic as they get. The difference between internal and external is almost non-existant, about 2mm each side
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| -vdub- |
| Posted: Aug 11 2011, 01:57 AM |
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Practice first on one of your non used old cases
remove top of case if using case top
may need to de-rivet for cheap cases
practice on old case
metal hole cutter
power tool with ultra thin cut blade
cut from case edge in direct line to the hole. Edge of hole not its center.
lift cut flap carefully and gently don't crease case metal
slide pipe to hole Use thin plastic either side of cut to make pipe slide easy and to protect pipe from sliding along sharp metal
press cur flap back down to case. make tight and neat as possible
use strong metal glue, metal liquid or similar product (apply thinly and tidy inside and out)
after its had over time to harden file or dremel the hardened metal flush
rubber or plastic circlip inside hole (or something similar)
paint over work area
screw, Rivet, bolt and nut or other case top
Forgotten anything! you'll know when practicing on an older case.
Also will think i'm sure of other ideas to improve on these quick thoughts
Metal glue net search for strongest one to buy in your locality (product name) |
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| evropej |
| Posted: Aug 11 2011, 03:00 AM |
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Just installed H80 and running tests now. Results so far are that the core runs 10C cooler normal operation and 5C cooler under stress test.
Conclusion, waste of money.
I tried overclocking core since I have more cooling but it seems the core i7 950 is stable up to 4.14GHz.
Sheesh  |
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| freedomdwarf |
| Posted: Aug 11 2011, 11:56 AM |
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@ evropej -
That's very strange indeed.... almost unbelievable.
I guess the cooler block is well seated onto the CPU otherwise you'd soon see very high temps when under stress.
I think the whole i-series processors run a tad cooler than the Q-series Core2 processors but I didn't think the difference was as big as that. Maybe it is?
What profile was your test run under?
I started with the 'performance' mode and yesterday I switched down to 'balanced' mode as the fans are quite a bit quieter and I am only losing 2-3ºC under load so for me it was worth the penalty.
Having said that, 5ºC lower temperature under stress with a cooler-running processor than I have is still a fair amount given that you already had a H-series fitted to your rig.... that's a sheer performance improvement from one model over the next. 5ºC is enough to make the difference between the system staying running and a shut-down.
A lot of review sites (and the H80 is no exception) will recommend one system over another with just one degree performance improvement - so 5ºC difference isn't so small!
Some more serious gamers will spend a small fortune to get just a half or one degree drop in temp with their cooling systems but I guess we aren't in that league.
On one hand it may seem a disappointing result but on the other it isn't that bad.
If you hadn't already had a H-series fitted I daresay you would have seen better results.
@ vdub -
That's exactly what I said you would have to do! And doing the repairs to the case as you have described after you have cut it to blazes is not enough to give the case it's original integrity and even with the steadiest hand in the world to smooth the repair paste it would still look a dog's breakfast when it's finished. YUK! It's very much an overkill and a lot of work for no real gain - there is virtually no gain in mounting the radiator assembly externally.
You might also consider that the hoses on a closed-loop system may not long enough for the radiator assembly to sit comfortably on the outside of the case.
For all the aggro in cutting the case to bits and repairing it, you would be better off buying something like a RASA DIY kit.
FYI: any metal glue/paste spread thinly enough to look nice is nowhere near as strong as the original pressed metal used to make the case; thus the case integrity will be compromised. I have used these matal pastes before (for car repairs) and they aren't very strong at all when put under lateral strain - it cracks and snaps even with finger pressure. These are unsuitable for case repairs.
@ dloneranger -
All my recently bought kit (Sata drives, DVD burners AND my 1,000 watt PSU) all came from Scan and on advice from the sales rep when I spoke to them. And like you, I rate them quite highly for products. FYI: The text message system you refer to comes from the delivery company, not Scan themselves - I know coz I used to work for them (DPD).
As for those PSU's - the ones you point out are way sub-1,000W which I wouldn't buy.
I wanted 1,000 watt minimum and most of the Scan PSU's are in the 500W-700W range.
However, They do have 3 models that are 1,000W+ although the one I actually bought doesn't seem to be listed on their website... One of which won't fit my case (LN35316) because the 12cm fan is designed to exhaust through the top of the case and you can't fit it upside down because the mounting holes for the back panel won't match up. The other two listed (LN36270 and LN17442) are fitted with 8cm fans - just like mine is! I rest my case on that one.
As for the cases.... I skimmed through all those listed on Scan's pages and quite frankly they all look hideous!!
I wouldn't grace my desktop with any of those on there.
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