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| microcine |
| Posted: Feb 18 2003, 11:52 PM |
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Unregistered
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Hello all,
This is my first post on this forum so first I wish to offer my praise to everyone involved in making VDub the great tool it is. This goes double (dubly?) to Mr. Lee who has made freeware encoding and editing a pleasurable experience. Now, to the feature request (or is it a question?) I have.
Would it be possible to include something like the libavcodec used in Mencoder in VirtualDub? I realize that the plugin nature of the software offers great flexibility and I do use an awful lot of codecs, but I think it would be a great feature to have this feature built in. There are two reasons why I think this would be wonderful:
1. It would allow people less familiar with how Windows works to encode high quality MPEG-4 compliant video. Sure, it is not so tricky to install a codec, but there are always bugs making something not work right given the right (read: wrong) combination of VDub and codec. If libavcodec was included it could always be tested to work and serve as a reference. In other words, you always know you can produce something with VirtuDub as long as it runs.
2. By including a free/open encoder you could possibly tweak both sides for better performance. I get great speed with Mencoder under Linux, even better than AviSynth+VDub or Vidomi under Windows, and more speed is always welcomed.
I said there were two reasons, but, in reality, there are two more. I separate them because one is a matter of choice for developers and the second is a result of including this feature. Let me explain. Libavcodec would allow for more than just MPEG-4 encoding. It seems like it could offer a lot of bang for the buck. Perhaps the fact that it is GCC based poses a problem, but on this I wish not to speculate as I am not programmer. Secondly, and my last point, if VirtualDub would have this built in encoder feature it would become more complete. Sure, there are other areas that can use polish (interface and filter features), but if VirtualDub became complete like that it would probably take off in a whole new way. It would surely become a tool to rival GIMP as a freeware sweetware. This could lead to a great influx of minds and available man-hours to further improve the code in the manner which makes open source so effective.
For some reason I never thought about this when using VirtualDub before. It just popped into my head as I was fooling around with Mencoder on a new Linux installation. Now it seems like an obvious target for inclusion.
This is the part where I thank you for your time and consideration and wait patiently for someone to explain to me why this obvious thing is not in there in the first place. Heh.
Cheers and, once again, thanks for this lovely software.
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| ChristianHJW |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 09:32 AM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1768
Member No.: 2
Joined: 7-July 02
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You forget one very important issue :
libavcodec is illegal !!!
This MPEG encoder could only exist as a so called 'educational' project, means it was only allowed to distribute its sourcecode for those being interested to tweak it in an educational environment, but giving binaries away to the public is strictly against the law in most countries around the globe, as the MPEG4 standard is protected by a number of patents !
As a matter of fact, the libavcodec developers ( of course ) dont pay license fees to MPAA, so this cant be an option for Avery Lee, who is responsible for Virtualdub as a product and was accepting full responsibility for any legal implications caused by dsitrubtion of his software, when accepting the general conditions on sourceforge when he founded his project there.
To come back to your original idea, the VitualdubMod team is thinking about similar things for patent free opensource codecs, such as
- Vorbis
- Theora
- FLAC
as we want to be able to support these codecs with the new container formats OGM and matroska, and very unfortunately there is no such thing as a new, open standard general codec API ( like UCI ) available for the time being.
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Visit the unofficial Virtualdub support forum on http://forums.virtualdub.org - help to reduce the big number of emails Avery Lee is getting every day !!
Support matroska as container and Gstreamer as the only truely open, x-platform multimedia platform .... |
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| Sarreq Teryx |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 10:14 AM |
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VirtualdubMod Alpha tester
Group: Vdubmod Alpha Testing Team
Posts: 175
Member No.: 41
Joined: 16-July 02
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small point, why would the licensing fees go to the MPAA?? 
I'd think they'd go to the MPEG-LA, being an MPEG codec
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And as I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, Lord, thy balls and shaft, they comfort me, you annoint my head with oil, some salt, a dash of pepper, a sprigg of parsley......Lord?............Lord??? What dost thou intend to do with that fork??? |
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| ChristianHJW |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 10:40 AM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1768
Member No.: 2
Joined: 7-July 02
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... sorry mate, i always swap the two entities  ... thansk for clarifying .......
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Visit the unofficial Virtualdub support forum on http://forums.virtualdub.org - help to reduce the big number of emails Avery Lee is getting every day !!
Support matroska as container and Gstreamer as the only truely open, x-platform multimedia platform .... |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 10:45 AM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 19 2003, 03:32 AM) | You forget one very important issue :
libavcodec is illegal !!!
This MPEG encoder could only exist as a so called 'educational' project, means it was only allowed to distribute its sourcecode for those being interested to tweak it in an educational environment, but giving binaries away to the public is strictly against the law in most countries around the globe, as the MPEG4 standard is protected by a number of patents !
As a matter of fact, the libavcodec developers ( of course ) dont pay license fees to MPAA, so this cant be an option for Avery Lee, who is responsible for Virtualdub as a product and was accepting full responsibility for any legal implications caused by dsitrubtion of his software, when accepting the general conditions on sourceforge when he founded his project there.
To come back to your original idea, the VitualdubMod team is thinking about similar things for patent free opensource codecs, such as
- Vorbis
- Theora
- FLAC
as we want to be able to support these codecs with the new container formats OGM and matroska, and very unfortunately there is no such thing as a new, open standard general codec API ( like UCI ) available for the time being. |
Shut up! That's only in the US and you don't even live there! STOP SPREADING FALSE INFORMATION!! Geez you're getting on my tits here with patents.
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| microcine |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 12:52 PM |
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Unregistered
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| QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 19 2003, 03:32 AM) | You forget one very important issue :
libavcodec is illegal !!! |
Ok, my mistake. I was under the impression that libavcodec/ffmpeg were perfectly legal projects like Xvid. Argh, all these legal issues drive me nuts. I still don't get why Xvid is legal or is this a simple matter of distinction between supplying source code and binaries? Even if that is the case it makes little sense. That sort of logic would imply that it is ok to copy and give out music tapes as long as you do not also supply a playback device.
Oh well. Now that I was given the obvious reason why it is not included I will have to focus my efforts at inspiring the linux development community to turn mencoder (or similar) into something more like VirtualDub. Seems a much longer route, but maybe that can happen.
Thanks for the answer and cheers.  |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 07:51 PM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (microcine @ Feb 19 2003, 06:52 AM) | | QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 19 2003, 03:32 AM) | You forget one very important issue :
libavcodec is illegal !!! |
Ok, my mistake. I was under the impression that libavcodec/ffmpeg were perfectly legal projects like Xvid. Argh, all these legal issues drive me nuts. I still don't get why Xvid is legal or is this a simple matter of distinction between supplying source code and binaries? Even if that is the case it makes little sense. That sort of logic would imply that it is ok to copy and give out music tapes as long as you do not also supply a playback device.
Oh well. Now that I was given the obvious reason why it is not included I will have to focus my efforts at inspiring the linux development community to turn mencoder (or similar) into something more like VirtualDub. Seems a much longer route, but maybe that can happen.
Thanks for the answer and cheers. |
There we go, sigh. Christian will you please stop this.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:
Software patents apply.
XviD is illegal. The sourcecode of XviD is just as illegal as any binaries. (NOTE: The XviD binaries clearly state that distributing the sourcecode to the US and Japan is NOT allowed)
Lame (opensource mp3 encoder) is illegal.
Fees can be charged for decoders of patented software technologies.
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EUROPE:
No software patents (yet).
XviD can't be sued. The sourcecode and binaries can be freely distributed.
Lame can be freely used and distributed.
No fees can be charged because patents do not apply (yet).
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| Kippesoep |
| Posted: Feb 19 2003, 09:02 PM |
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Moderator of the Virtualdub support forum
Group: Moderators
Posts: 447
Member No.: 441
Joined: 6-October 02
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I honestly hope the EU will never allow software patents. They suck.
BTW, muf, you seem to be getting a bit too worked up about this. No reason not to be polite about it.
Oh, and does the image in your signature absolutely have to be this large? It is rather distracting... |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 20 2003, 10:53 AM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (Kippesoep @ Feb 19 2003, 03:02 PM) | I honestly hope the EU will never allow software patents. They suck.
BTW, muf, you seem to be getting a bit too worked up about this. No reason not to be polite about it.
Oh, and does the image in your signature absolutely have to be this large? It is rather distracting... |
Well I don't know if you've noticed, but Christian keeps on labeling XviD, lame and FFMPEG illegal. This is false information, he could at least say "in the US only", and it's very disrespectful against the developers of those projects, most of which stay completely within the law developing these programs. It's just really getting on my tits.
And about the signature, maybe you prefer one of these:
These have all once been my signature   .
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| ChristianHJW |
| Posted: Feb 20 2003, 02:33 PM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1768
Member No.: 2
Joined: 7-July 02
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| QUOTE (muf @ Feb 20 2003, 12:53 PM) | | Well I don't know if you've noticed, but Christian keeps on labeling XviD, lame and FFMPEG illegal. This is false information, he could at least say "in the US only", and it's very disrespectful against the developers of those projects, most of which stay completely within the law developing these programs. |
I apologize to you for my unprecise speaking, but may i remind you that the original post was asking about support for an educational MPEG4 codec project in the official Virtualdub distribution, and Avery Lee is living in the USA !!!, so he himself had to be careful about what could be packed into the Vdub binaries.
You can repeat it as often as you want, IMHO its still complete bullshit to say that patents that were applied for in the US are simply not valid in the EU, just beause you liked it to be that way. You shouldnt spread this kind of rumours without having verified such information very very carefully before, but i guess its your youth that allows you to act that way. Of course, if you could point us to some reliable sources i'd be more than willingly to check them thoroughly.
I believe its pretty disrespectful from you to talk to me in such a tone, but politeness was never your strong side i guess ....
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Visit the unofficial Virtualdub support forum on http://forums.virtualdub.org - help to reduce the big number of emails Avery Lee is getting every day !!
Support matroska as container and Gstreamer as the only truely open, x-platform multimedia platform .... |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 20 2003, 04:09 PM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 20 2003, 08:33 AM) | I apologize to you for my unprecise speaking, but may i remind you that the original post was asking about support for an educational MPEG4 codec project in the official Virtualdub distribution, and Avery Lee is living in the USA !!!, so he himself had to be careful about what could be packed into the Vdub binaries.
You can repeat it as often as you want, IMHO its still complete bullshit to say that patents that were applied for in the US are simply not valid in the EU, just beause you liked it to be that way. You shouldnt spread this kind of rumours without having verified such information very very carefully before, but i guess its your youth that allows you to act that way. Of course, if you could point us to some reliable sources i'd be more than willingly to check them thoroughly.
I believe its pretty disrespectful from you to talk to me in such a tone, but politeness was never your strong side i guess .... |
You can make clear that it won't be done in vdub WITHOUT saying things about illegal "in most places around the globe".
Anyway. Do you ever read c't ? In the first pages there is always an article about law, and software patents have been discussed multiple times in it. There are NO laws for software patents YET, but there are plans to update the european patent laws, of course with fierce resistance. You might even be better off spending your time protesting against this than promoting patent-free software, as this freedom of software development is going to be taken away from us VERY SOON if we don't do anything about it, while patent-free software can be developed anytime. There are also a lot of other news-articles about law that tell about the progress of the updating of european patent laws. I don't just suck this out of my thumb youknow.
About the politeness, you know I'm not polite, I never told anyone I was polite, and you know damn right I tell you what I think right in the face without flowers. And you have annoyed me. Do know that I'm not being disrespectful (well I may be acting so but I do respect you), I have certain opinions about you and not all of them are quite positive, but I know you don't have bad intentions. I like you because in a way we are similar, a big difference though is that you're way more civilised. And no, I won't be a salesman .
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| ChristianHJW |
| Posted: Feb 21 2003, 04:01 PM |
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Advanced Member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 1768
Member No.: 2
Joined: 7-July 02
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Are we at all sure that the patents covering the MPEG compression standard ARE software patents at all, and not just very normal patents, like if you patent an injector unit for a new diesel engine ?
Somebody else with a better understanding care to comment here ?
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Visit the unofficial Virtualdub support forum on http://forums.virtualdub.org - help to reduce the big number of emails Avery Lee is getting every day !!
Support matroska as container and Gstreamer as the only truely open, x-platform multimedia platform .... |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 21 2003, 05:03 PM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (ChristianHJW @ Feb 21 2003, 10:01 AM) | Are we at all sure that the patents covering the MPEG compression standard ARE software patents at all, and not just very normal patents, like if you patent an injector unit for a new diesel engine ?
Somebody else with a better understanding care to comment here ? |
MPEG specification covers this: 01010010100010010111001010100100011010101. Diesel engines don't. The only physical part about MPEG is the practical implementation in hardware chipsets. And the part that XviD, FFMPEG and Lame cover is again: 101010100100100100101001101001001010101. So yea, I'm pretty sure these are software patents.
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| Kippesoep |
| Posted: Feb 21 2003, 05:56 PM |
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Moderator of the Virtualdub support forum
Group: Moderators
Posts: 447
Member No.: 441
Joined: 6-October 02
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It could be algorithmic patents or even patents on the file format. I'm not sure whether those are any more valid in the EU than general software patents, though. |
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| muf |
| Posted: Feb 21 2003, 06:57 PM |
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MCF team member
Group: Moderators
Posts: 179
Member No.: 46
Joined: 21-July 02
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| QUOTE (Kippesoep @ Feb 21 2003, 11:56 AM) | | It could be algorithmic patents or even patents on the file format. I'm not sure whether those are any more valid in the EU than general software patents, though. |
Afaik nobody has ever been able to patent algorithms (in europe) so far. And file format patents are also software patents.
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