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Unofficial VirtualDub Support Forums > Advanced Video Processing > Why Ivtc/deinterlacing Is So Tedious

Posted by: cvx Nov 7 2011, 12:53 PM

im not a newbie to encoding nor am i some sort of expert but i wonder why is deinterlacing or ivtc so tedious and annoying (at times. not always) yet a media player can.decode and display it flawlessly for example

i bought a new dvd (animated. no its not anime so dont get excited) and i wanted to encode the vobs to xvid which is simple even.if i need to deinterlace. but it takes tinkering and test after test to see if il filtering it to what i want and i just wonder why we cant set deinterlace ON and expect what we get at playback from the vobs

im not ignorant i knoe not one size fits all needs. but yes its been eating at me for awhile

oh and as for the dvd i mentioned it was 2:3 pulldown but then it was encoded as progressive :s

so i had to IVTC (manual)>deinterlace(manual)>resize (anamorphic source) and i still see faint duplicate/half fileds during playback they are hard to spot but you are like "did i just see a random blur?"

IVTC alone did not suffice which is where the deinterlace helped i was using an external.filter calld smar deinterlace (usually inbuilt one is great. but one size doesnt fit all

)

anyways if u got this far thanks for staying on board to the end

edit: sorry for typos im using a mobile device

Posted by: cvx Nov 8 2011, 03:31 AM

i think i should clarify my "rant" a bit better

when a Tv or software player plays back for example an interlaced VOB (mpeg2 stream)

it has to deinterlace and then display the frame , in the old days of CRT deinterlace wasnt neccesary i think, the refresh rate made it seem like whole frames

now when i go to encode the output is interlaced (yuck!) so then i must deinterlace

now why is it that when its played back from VOB it displays fine but when i deinterlace i get artifacts?

why doesnt the output to the encode match what i see when i playback the source?

i hope i have cleaned up my original question now

Posted by: evropej Nov 8 2011, 06:16 PM

What you see on the screen is alternating fields which come and go.
What you see on the screen in virtualdub is two combined fields into one.
How you combine the fields produces different results.
Some programs do it better than others.
I think in general, they need to eliminate the useless interlacing technology.
I know someone is going to chime in and say that interlacing produces better panning results.
A feature which you can compensate for and remove the headaches of dealing with such format.

Posted by: cvx Nov 8 2011, 11:50 PM

So even on my LCD monitor the interlacing is still there? i thought field alternating only worked on CRT

and i do so agree it should just be progressive, we have the storage, the devices are capable and we are very much in the digital era most of these technologies 2:3 and Interlacing are/were suited to Analog and performance/bandwidth constrained environments

lol you may even find they use it just as a ripping deterrent

as for the IVTC is it sort of hit and miss like it is with Deinterlacing?

because my process above removes most but i see one blurred frame every 1-in-4 (i believe this is a bed reconstruction or something)

i cud probably produce screenshots if that helps

(to show whats going on)

oh! and thankyou for your reply

Posted by: cvx Nov 9 2011, 12:23 AM

Source:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/209/pulldown0000.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/pulldown0001.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/pulldown0002.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/341/pulldown0003.png/

CODE

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Duration : 21mn 38s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 965 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.599

Output (After IVTC, Reduce framerate):
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/pulldownfilteredivtc000.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/pulldownfilteredivtc000.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/249/pulldownfilteredivtc000.png/

Posted by: evropej Nov 9 2011, 12:42 AM

it depends on what program is playing back the media.
if i play the same media with media player 12 and quicktime, i get two completely different results.
if you play it vdub, you see both fields.
if you play it on a tv, you might actually play interlaced media.
bottom line, different displays and players pamper the video differently.

i made this video for comparing deinterlacing techniques a while ago
try just compressing to xvid and see what the results are
http://evropej.com/deinterlacing/deinterlacing.html

you might have to do things in multiple steps

Posted by: cvx Nov 9 2011, 01:17 AM

great video

and in that video you have the same deinterlace filter as me (Smart Deinterlacer) altho i have some sort of beta version

altho my issue is Telecine related do you have any suggestion for that?

Posted by: evropej Nov 9 2011, 04:14 AM

Thanks
Sorry I cant help you with tc since I dont work with it much.
Have you tried other encoders to see what they do with the video?
Try for example freemake video converter
I have found that in most cases, it does a great job and take the headache out of messing with filters and settings.
Maybe some of the developers can help you out with this one as well.

Posted by: cvx Nov 9 2011, 04:59 AM

i'll try it out, ill probably output it to something lossless (LAGS is good) then VDub it

and maybe they cna help, it depends how many are wandering around this subforum

Posted by: cvx Nov 9 2011, 06:29 AM

freemake didnt work :S

in fact it produced what i would call a bad encode

the combed frames were ripped out (so it jerked on panning) also all the complete frames were blocked/fuzzed like deinterlacing without interpolation of any kind (think of a nearest neighbour resize)

in the images i previously posted there is a sort of prediction frame,
it half appears when the object is about to move in the next frame,
im not sure i can get rid of them (would cause jerking)
but i wouldnt mind if i could merg the two combed frames together and if needed interpolating them

maybe thats what im already doing with the IVTC filter, but i just wanna clean up my output as much as i can

Posted by: evropej Nov 9 2011, 11:06 PM

You ever look at MSU filters for options?

http://compression.ru/video/index.htm

Posted by: L.H.V.F. Aug 13 2012, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (cvx @ Nov 8 2011, 09:23 PM)

CODE

Hi to Everyone

I was searching Threads about deinterlacing filters in VirtualDub Forum, and with an similar video sample, I have a questions about this problem. How to remove 3:2 pulldown, as "cvx" member have done in it processing? If anyone know how I can do this procedure step-by-step, and with the best settings (I don't know how I could make this, or did it before. I have only applied basically sharpen and blur filters before), I would thank very much. I would like suggestions about my problem. Before, I was thinking that the video, since that is "Progressive", would be necessary an interpolation, that possible to make with "MVTools" (AviSynth filter), and with an interpolated video output, apply some deinterlacing filter, or processing with some technique. But seeing the case of "cvx", I can percept that an Progressive video can also be deinterlaced, and that being "Pulldown". I have collected two samples from YouTube for this same video. I have saw before other program for remove pulldown, the TMPGEnc, but this program expires after certain time, and no has all options as VirtualDub, and with the same quality. Links of reference:

(How to convert progressive to interlaced? - Doom9.Org Forum: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155936)

MVTools site: http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html#examples

MVTools usage: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=84770

MediaInfo says:

QUOTE

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Baseline@L2.1
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 29mn 36s
Bit rate : 310 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 2 126 Kbps
Width : 540 pixels
Height : 360 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 3:2
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.064
Stream size : 65.7 MiB (76%)
Tagged date : UTC 2012-01-17 18:21:24

I would like to know how can I process this video, with the better results, and what procedures is possible do that? I'm quoting "cvx", because his video is "Progressive", and have a similar case with annoying "pulldown". And since that the container is AVC, how to avoid green frames in VirtualDub, with fccHandler plugins, in that case too? If the video is not "pulldown", what kind of procedures can I fix this video?

Samples:

Edit: Since the links at http://minus.com/ are no longer available for download, I'm uploading at Google Drive the respective links below:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2P9tmmpSwF-V1BoRTdvZDN1YjQ/edit?usp=sharing (Matéria_de_Capa_-_Clima_e_Energia.flv)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2P9tmmpSwF-TTRxRkpxVlV1TTA/edit?usp=sharing (Matéria_de_Capa_-_Clima_e_Energia.mp4)

Snapshot of the sample: http://s12.postimage.org/v0r8lpe0t/problem_video_progressive.png

Obs.: Maybe some video processing technique and configuration steps used by evropej member could help for my case, in the part of deinterlacing of the video interpolation. I accept also a best script of AviSynth, that possibly would be very helpful, as I have notified in many cases in this Forum for more complex situations. I also don't know if the video does not contain "pulldown", and how to identify this, what could be clarified with http://www.headbands.com/gspot/ (but I tested and don't found it ), together the specific and detailed information about "Aspect Ratio". Maybe this video was originally "Interlaced", and was bad converted for "Progressive".

Link of reference (evropej's tutorial):

http://www.evropej.com/deinterlacing/deinterlacing.html

I would greatly appreciate anyone who could help.

I thank reply.
Thanks,
L.H.V.F. .

Posted by: L.H.V.F. Aug 27 2012, 12:49 AM

QUOTE

QUOTE (cvx @ Nov 8 2011, 09:23 PM)

CODE

QUOTE

I was searching Threads about deinterlacing filters in VirtualDub Forum, and with an similar video sample, I have a questions about this problem. How to remove 3:2 pulldown, as "cvx" member have done in it processing? If anyone know how I can do this procedure step-by-step, and with the best settings (I don't know how I could make this, or did it before. I have only applied basically sharpen and blur filters before), I would thank very much. I would like suggestions about my problem. Before, I was thinking that the video, since that is "Progressive", would be necessary an interpolation, that possible to make with "MVTools" (AviSynth filter), and with an interpolated video output, apply some deinterlacing filter, or processing with some technique. But seeing the case of "cvx", I can percept that an Progressive video can also be deinterlaced, and that being "Pulldown". I have collected two samples from YouTube for this same video. I have saw before other program for remove pulldown, the TMPGEnc, but this program expires after certain time, and no has all options as VirtualDub, and with the same quality. Links of reference:

(How to convert progressive to interlaced? - Doom9.Org Forum: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=155936)

MVTools site: http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html#examples

MVTools usage: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=84770

MediaInfo says:

QUOTE

I would like to know how can I process this video, with the better results, and what procedures is possible do that? I'm quoting "cvx", because his video is "Progressive", and have a similar case with annoying "pulldown". And since that the container is AVC, how to avoid green frames in VirtualDub, with fccHandler plugins, in that case too? If the video is not "pulldown", what kind of procedures can I fix this video?

Samples:

Edit: Since the links at http://minus.com/ are no longer available for download, I'm uploading at Google Drive the respective links below:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2P9tmmpSwF-V1BoRTdvZDN1YjQ/edit?usp=sharing (Matéria_de_Capa_-_Clima_e_Energia.flv)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2P9tmmpSwF-TTRxRkpxVlV1TTA/edit?usp=sharing (Matéria_de_Capa_-_Clima_e_Energia.mp4)

Snapshot of the sample: http://s12.postimage.org/v0r8lpe0t/problem_video_progressive.png

Obs.: Maybe some video processing technique and configuration steps used by evropej member could help for my case, in the part of deinterlacing of the video interpolation. I accept also a best script of AviSynth, that possibly would be very helpful, as I have notified in many cases in this Forum for more complex situations. [i] I also don't know if the video does not contain "pulldown", and how to identify this, what could be clarified with http://www.headbands.com/gspot/ (but I tested and don't found it ), together the specific and detailed information about "Aspect Ratio". Maybe this video was originally "Interlaced", and was bad converted for "Progressive".

Link of reference (evropej's tutorial):

http://www.evropej.com/deinterlacing/deinterlacing.html

I would greatly appreciate anyone who could help.

Hi to Everyone

Since I was having doubts about the video interpolation, and want an understood people to clarify about these media subjects information, I have decided to contact the General Developer of MediaInfo Project, since I'm registred in http://sourceforge.net/, for reporting bugs. Below is the conversation quoted by himself via e-mail:

Me:

QUOTE

Other question, this that can be clarified by you, since you is the general developer of the
MediaInfo Project, is about the Interpolation of the video. See this snapshot made by
VLC:

Snapshot of the sample:
http://s12.postimage.org/v0r8lpe0t/problem_video_progressive.png

I want to know if the video is only Progressive, or by one fault of the MediaInfo, is not
clarified if the same is \"Pulldown\" too? I would thank very much if you can help, because I
need to edit this video collected from the YouTube for an personal necessity.

General Developer of the MediaInfo:

QUOTE

This stream is progressive, period.
You may have anything else before digitalization, but it is not something you can detect digitally.
No pulldown. BTW, Pulldown is commonly seen for 30 fps streams (to 24 fps), not for 25 fps streams.

Jérôme

Seeing this situation, I can conclude that the unique way is re-interpolate this bad converted video from "Interlaced" to "Progressive" (in the type Interlaced Interpolation) that it was thus originally, and with this Interlaced video (done with http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools.html e.g.), I can apply some deinterlacing filter (could be http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156028 too), such as IVTC, what could more simple and efficient with an AviSynth script, because all procedures is already setted itself. I know that http://forum.doom9.org/ Forum has a lot of topics about knowledges of AviSynth, but I need a more specific script for my case.

Obs.: Some additions from PM message of the "IanB" member, in respect of video processing of this sample media:

QUOTE

http://s12.postimage.org/v0r8lpe0t/problem...progressive.png

This is an example of progressive resizing of an interlaced image. It is generally consider irreversible, but many have tried to unwind the mash, some even had some minor successes.

I will open a new Topic, if I won't encounter some Thread about these filter types mentioned by IanB member in this Forum, but is also accepted http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page by me, if this be more efficient and with the best quality result, as I really want. Maybe it will be more difficult, but is not impossible, in some form. Please, could leave some suggestions, some people that be able to solves my indicated problems, even if in reference from another Forum? Also I would accepts some commentary of people that understand this case, because I need to process this video for a personal necessity.

P.S.: I will move all comments for another Thread, depending of the discussion.

Could someone help me in these conditions?

Thanks.
I wait return,
L.H.V.F. .